Posted on 11/22/2006 7:51:12 AM PST by Borges
> Milton Friedman should be on this list. It's a glaring oversight, IMO. <
Amen. If nothing else, he certainly ranks as more influential than Ralph Nader!
[Unless we give Nader credit for Al Gore's having lost Florida in 2000!]
> The changes brought on by the emergence of Rock and Roll are still very much with us. <
1. "Rock and roll" was little more than "rhythm and blues" -- but performed mostly by whites rather than by blacks.
2. "Rhythm and blues" was basically a simplified form of jazz.
3. There's no question that Louis Armstrong had more influence upon jazz than any other musician, both from the vocal and from the instrumental perspectives.
4. It follows logically that Elvis Presley and "rock and roll as a whole" would never have developed as they did without the prior influence of Louis Armstrong.
5. Ergo, Louis Armstrong should be ranked higher than Elvis Presley in terms of musical influence.
But on the other hand, if we ignore musical matters and consider only the abysmal decline of American culture and social values since 1954, then Elvis goes right to the top of the list!
I agree that Louis Armstrong was a bigger musical force then Elvis but Rock was more then just R&B. Elvis brought 'country and western' and mainstream pop influences to bear on existing black musical traditions. The whole point was that wasn't merely black music or white music but a mixture of the two.
Obviously bogus, since Cindy Sheehan isn't on there.
Sorry, but Elvis had a profound impact on music and therefore society. He made black music mainstream in white society. Without Elvis, you would have had none of the rock and roll talents of the late fifties and sixties, including the Beatles. Rock and roll and pop music and everything that evolved from Elvis probably never would have happened. Music would have evolved from the likes of Pat Boone and Rosemary Clooney. Elvis made the genesis of rock and roll acceptable to white America and then to the world. No one else was capable of making that transistion possible.
"[Ralph Nader] He made the cars we drive safer; thirty years later, he made George W. Bush the president."
I fully understand the (contemptuous) spirit in which the second part was written, but it still gave me a good laugh. I think for that alone, he should be in the top 5.
Absolutely. GW was a great guy, and should be rated highly. But AL held the union together--at times by almost his sheer will alone. His constant efforts to win the war--and his plan for winning the peace--have had much more of an influence on how the country has operated since.
Right or wrong--whether you agree with his positions or not--its true that without him at the helm, we would be two (or more) nations.
Not really. The war was already over when the battle was fought. It was a moot point.
Barnum had an influence, but certainly far more important influences on society were left off the list. Hefner's publishing titillating pictures fueled the entire sexual revolution of the 50s, 60s and beyond. He changed the sexual attitudes of women and altered relationships from predominantly marriage to predominantly shacking up. Along with the sexual freedoms and altered states of morality came more divorces and less religion in society. For these things I would put Hefner in the top 5 most influential people of America. He had almost as much influence on shaping America as did Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and FDR, and probably more so than Reagan.
> Elvis had a profound impact on music and therefore society. He made black music mainstream in white society <
But Elvis wasn't the first, not by a long shot.
Haven't you ever seen those old movies from the 1930's and 1940's, with a bunch of white couples jitterbugging to the music of Count Basie and Cab Calloway?
Or have you heard about the "jazz age" of the 1920's, when just about every flapper and her beau were dancing the black-influenced Charleston to Dixieland music performed by both black bands and white bands?
> Elvis made the genesis of rock and roll acceptable to white America and then to the world. No one else was capable of making that transistion possible. <
I think you're making a vast overstatement. Bill Haley and His Comets made black-style music wildly popular among white teenagers at least a year before Elvis ever appeared on the Ed Sullivan Show. Elvis was a pioneer to be sure, but only one among several.
Using your logic Jesse Daniel Sturgis should be on the list. He built the first house trailer.
Louis Armstrong was influential on music, but much less so on American society as a whole. I could probably name a couple dozen American musicians and composers who were far more influential than Armstrong. Just because someone comes along earlier in chronological time doesn't mean that they are more influential on society than someone who came later. When I think of influential musicians, I think of people who not simply successful musicians, but who also fundamentally transformed the way men and women, different races, and different generations interacted with one another. George M Cohan probably was second to Elvis in affecting society. His music altered the psyche of the American people and how they perceived themselves to be Americans.
> Elvis brought 'country and western' and mainstream pop influences to bear on existing black musical traditions. The whole point was that wasn't merely black music or white music but a mixture of the two. <
When it comes to combining black music with the hillbilly tradition, Jimmie Rodgers, the "Singing Brakeman," was there long before Elvis. And he was almost as popular during the late 1920's.
But if you want to pick the single most important influence in popularizing the "rockabilly" music style, it wouldn't be Elvis. It would have to be Sam Phillips, who gave a start not only to Elvis, but also to Carl Perkins, Johnny Cash, Roy Orbison and Jerry Lee Lewis.
Bill Haley couldn't hold a candle to Elvis, Ask any woman who was a teenager in the early and mid fifties. Haley was a 40's swing musician who was struggling and looking for a new gimmick. Elvis broke rock and roll open. Haley could never have done that. As I said on a previous post, chronology has nothing to do with influence.
What about Buddy Holly?
If it's just a matter of a white musician using black music influences How about Louis Moreau Gottchalk? He was hugely popular in the mid 19th century.
>I could probably name a couple dozen American musicians and composers who were far more influential than Armstrong.<
I couldn't disagree more. Every popular singer after Armstrong owes a debt to his style and his phrasing -- whether they know it or not. His influence has been significant even in country and western circles, having been transmitted there by the brand of jazz called "western swing." (Just ask Willie Nelson!)
And ditto for every instumentalist since the 1920's (and right up until today) who has played an improvised solo -- not only in jazz, but also in blues, rock, straight-ahead C & W, and even bluegrass. That's because Armstrong virtually invented the improvised solo as we now know it.
Of course, we of the present era take such matters for granted. The situation calls to mind an old story about a college student who upon leaving her English class asked, "What was so great about Shakespeare? All he did was string together a bunch of clichés."
Glad Stephen Foster made the list... One of my favorites..
> If it's just a matter of a white musician using black music influences How about Louis Moreau Gottchalk? He was hugely popular in the mid 19th century. <
Much less popular, however, than Stephen Foster. And at least Foster made the list of the top 100 influencers!
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