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It heats. It powers. Is it the future of home energy
Christian Science Monitor ^ | 14 November 2006 | Mark Clayton

Posted on 11/14/2006 12:32:02 PM PST by shrinkermd

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To: shrinkermd
Unless this thing is super efficient, why not just hook a NG generator into your home electric system? Same thing right?
21 posted on 11/14/2006 1:28:59 PM PST by Realism (Some believe that the facts-of-life are open to debate.....)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra

My gas & electric are provided by the same company. It offers a natural gas operated back up generator. I think it costs several hundred dollars per year, whether it is ever used or not. I've considered it, but am not sure I can justify it. When the electricity goes out, I lose heat, lights *and* water.


22 posted on 11/14/2006 1:29:07 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: shrinkermd

Sounds like a fine idea. Now, if would get NG to the site.


23 posted on 11/14/2006 1:31:18 PM PST by RightWhale (RTRA DLQS GSCW)
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To: camle
sure, i bet. wonder how many people will spend 13 thousand dollars plus fuel for those internal combustion engines, to save one percentage point efficiency.

Prius?

24 posted on 11/14/2006 1:32:53 PM PST by SampleMan (Do not dispute the peacefulness of Islam, so as not to send Muslims into violent outrage.)
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To: GoLightly
offers a natural gas operated back up generator. I think it costs several hundred dollars per year

Buy your own for $3-$5K.

25 posted on 11/14/2006 1:33:41 PM PST by Realism (Some believe that the facts-of-life are open to debate.....)
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To: GoLightly; All
A good woodstove with a flat top for cooking and heating water, an ample supply of wood and a little muscle will get you through the power outages.(At least mine did in Colorado, 7,000' up.)

However, this scenario all depends on whether you live in a free area of the country or you live in a fascist controlled area with unrealistic zoning governed by fatcat politicians who will never want for anything........

FMCDH(BITS)

26 posted on 11/14/2006 1:48:05 PM PST by nothingnew (I fear for my Republic due to marxist influence in our government. Open eyes/see)
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To: Realism
Buy your own for $3-$5K.

I'm not going to live in this house long enough to justify $3-$5K.

27 posted on 11/14/2006 1:56:32 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: rottndog

OK, that explains things. The house I live in doesn't have automatic anything, it was built in the twenties. We have to shut anything off manually if a line broke.


28 posted on 11/14/2006 2:05:06 PM PST by SFC Chromey (We are at war with Islamofascists, now ACT LIKE IT!)
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To: shrinkermd
Given consumers' interest in having a backup power generator on site, micro-CHP systems that provide that, as well as cut electric bills, may hold the most promise, say analysts.

The way I'm reading the literature on this, it sounds to me like it will be burning gas for fuel pretty much 24-7 during the heating season with electricity as a byproduct. During the cooling season, it does not sound as if it's going to do anything, so I guess it's usefulness is dependent on which region you live in. If so, it will not take off in the milder regions and definitely not in the deep South.

In most of the US, peak electrical demand is during the summer months, not the winter. And payback period is very dependent on the price of natural gas which as we have seen in the last decade or so can be very volatile. Perhaps it can run of fuel oil as well, but the few links I looked at indicated gas.

29 posted on 11/14/2006 2:10:27 PM PST by Ditto
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To: GoLightly

I've got vent-free fireplace logs. They look okay, and at least I have heat if I lose electrical service.


30 posted on 11/14/2006 2:13:16 PM PST by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ("Don't touch that thing")
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra

I've stabilized a wormhole in my backyard. Using the temperature difference between this universe and the other one it's connected to, I'm generating tons of electricity.
I'm afraid to sell it back to the power company, though.


31 posted on 11/14/2006 2:23:40 PM PST by xroadie
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To: xroadie

You evil conservative! You're going to slowly destroy that other universe! Their women and children will bear the brunt of your insensitivity! Brute!


32 posted on 11/14/2006 2:27:35 PM PST by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ("Don't touch that thing")
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To: xroadie
PS: I hope you didn't get your wormhole at Walmart! Those Chinese-made holes flicker out faster that a super-nova!
33 posted on 11/14/2006 2:29:33 PM PST by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ("Don't touch that thing")
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To: -YYZ-
Yes, it's 89% efficient at turning a high-value fuel into high-entropy heat energy. I think the idea here is that you can generate electricity from the fuel with high efficiencies at home, since what would normally be waste energy, typically in the form of hot exhaust gases and the heat given off by the engine, instead goes back into heating the house, which needs to be done anyway.

Electric utilities have been doing that for decades --- they are called Combined Heat & Power Plants and are in most downtown areas of large cities in the East and upper Midwest and are in virtually every city in Europe. There are also co-generation and combined cycle plants that do on a very large scale (500 + MW) what this unit does. They are basically one or more large gas turbine-generators with all the exhaust heat delivered to a heat recovery steam generator which either sends steam to heat buildings and homes or feed some industrial process or the steam can be run through a steam turbine-generator to produce even more electricity.

I don't buy the 89% efficiency thing for this gadget. Even the latest generation of technology in the utility sector only delivers a little over 60% efficiency when measured by BTU input vs. useful energy delivered. Perhaps they are measuring combustion efficiency, but that is deceptive. Heat generated that only goes up the chimney is of no value to anyone.

34 posted on 11/14/2006 2:36:18 PM PST by Ditto
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To: nothingnew
My house has good insulation & a lot of low E glass windows with Eastern exposure. I also have two natural fireplaces with fans. Yes, I know they don't really heat the home, but they do produce enough radiant heat to knock the edge off. Also, I have a gas stove, so can throw a few pans of water on the stove, while I'm awake & can keep an eye on them.

I have my own well, no electricity, no water. No electricity, no fireplace fans. We rarely lose electricity in the winter here & when we do, the outage usually doesn't last very long.

My furnace went on the fritz in the dead of winter a couple of years ago. It would kick in in the morning & work all day long. Bout sundown (after normal working hours) it would stop working, but not on a daily basis. It played with me for almost a month, til it didn't kick in one Saturday morning. The house never got below 50 & that was without any central heat for three days, while the temp outside hovered in the low teens.

When I was younger, went through a winter where our company's landlord couldn't justify turning on the heat. The gas company wanted a huge deposit to turn it on & he'd lost 3 of his 4 tenants in the building. He gave us a pass on the rent & we rented a bunch of propane space heaters. When his pipes froze & busted, we had an indoor skating rink. I wore a down coat, a hat & mittens indoors, though had to take off the mittens when I needed to do any typing. LOL
35 posted on 11/14/2006 2:42:29 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra
I've got vent-free fireplace logs.

What are they & where can I get some?

36 posted on 11/14/2006 2:44:40 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: xroadie
Using the temperature difference between this universe and the other one it's connected to, I'm generating tons of electricity.

That was a great Isaac Asimov story.

37 posted on 11/14/2006 2:56:01 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (Goldbugs, immune to logic and allergic to facts. You know who you are.)
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To: GoLightly
I'm not going to live in this house long enough to justify $3-$5K.

A simple natural gas generator is is net loser. Its cost of producing electricity will always be higher than the utilities.

So its only value, as another poster pointed out, is that it is free electricity while you are heating you house. So then the question is how much electricity is going to be generated for the $6-$8,000 investment (net cost after a boiler is deducted).

I burn less than 1000 gallons of propane a year so lets say the generator/heater burns 3 gallons an hour (that is probably very efficient) and produces 1.5 KW per hour. So it would produce 500 KW per year or $50.00 worth of electricity (at $.10 a KW).

That is roughly .0083 percent return on the investment, not counting depreciation, etc. I might actually do better putting the money under my mattress (to help keep me warm).

38 posted on 11/14/2006 3:00:08 PM PST by LeGrande
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To: Toddsterpatriot

I was thinkin' of getting the mini-black hole from Ikea, but the possibility of spaghettification has me a bit worried! I'm already 6'3"! Don't wanna be 6 billion 3"!


39 posted on 11/14/2006 3:06:44 PM PST by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ("Don't touch that thing")
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To: LeGrande

My earlier response was kind of a threadjack. I'd consider the $3-$5k money well spent, if it was needed to prevent the pipes in my house from freezing & busting. Personal comfort & boredom, cuz none of my toys work make a generator attractive, not a necessity & yes, it would be a net "loser".

One of my sons lived in a house where they kept the temp no higher than 55 degrees all winter. They weren't gonna turn the heat on at all, 'til I pointed out the issue with the plumbing.


40 posted on 11/14/2006 3:18:57 PM PST by GoLightly
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