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Was the Vote for Iraq War 'Right'?
Publius' Forum ^ | 11/03/06 | warner todd huston

Posted on 11/03/2006 7:17:38 AM PST by Mobile Vulgus

In another grand example of "journalistic" integrity, USA Today has declared the Iraq war a total failure even as we are still in the middle of it all. With that "truth" reported, I'd like to have their crystal ball to get the next lottery numbers, too.

But, they aren't the only ones. We hear leftists and anti-War on Terror types repeatedly claim that the whole action and subsequent attempt to build an Iraqi democracy was "clearly wrong". We hear that it should never have happened, that our actions were somehow illegitimate, or that we hadn't the right to invade Iraq and overthrow Saddam.

But, by what real evidence are such claims of our relative wrongness made? How can pundits and commentators set these claims in tones of surety?

The truth is, claims that our actions are wrong cannot be claimed provably correct with total assurance. It will take decades to prove out whether it was "wrong" or "right" and many more years after that to see what other countries will do from what we have done here. All we have now are best guesses, bias, and conjecture as to what will happen or even what IS happening now.

Now, it is absolutely true to say that the peace in Iraq has been hard to win. It is a fair assessment to say that the Bush administration has made many mistakes in re-building and nation building in Iraq. But, it is not fair to say the efforts in Iraq have been a failure. As mentioned, this project the Bush administration has undertaken will take many, many years to develop (as Bush duly warned us when he began it all).

Yet, the soothsayers at USA Today and other like minded naysayers have shined up their crystal ball and pronounced that any vote for the war in Iraq was not the "right" vote. In an article titled 2 wars, 2 votes in Congress, only 10 who got both right, USA Today has presumed that they know if our efforts in Iraq was "right" or was "tragically ill-conceived".

The arrogance of this proclamation is amazing for a supposed "news" paper that is purportedly dedicated to "reporting", instead of creating, the news.

The paper has decided that a vote to give Bush the go-ahead to enter Iraq in 2002 was the "wrong" vote, saying "Just as certainly, the wiser vote in 2002 was to deny the second President Bush authorization to invade Iraq."

They know this.... how?

This is based on... what?

Just the fact that we are having troubles there now? Using that simple-minded formula just about every war we have won could have been proclaimed a "failure" or the "wrong choice" while at a low point in the effort!

Are they using casualties as a guide?

If so, we would have considered WWII a failure during Iwo Jima, for instance, where we lost nearly 7,000 killed and 21,000 wounded during that bloody battle. Would USA Today have declared WWII a "loss" at that time were they "reporting" the effects of that war?

Following their current pattern, they would.

Worse, the entire premise is wrong as the war against Saddam itself was a smashing success. We went through Saddam's forces with few losses and in record time, a fact that many seem to completely forget. The war part of our invasion was quick and a complete success. It's the occupation and peace building we are having trouble with.

Looking over history (not just that of America's wars but of any country's), one simply cannot judge a war's outcome while in the midst of it. Wars take many years to fully reveal their effects and for USA Today to act as if they fully understand the war in Iraq and can pronounce it a failure is an exercise based on pure partisan punditry and NOT any kind of historical analysis.

Past Conflicts

Before we became a Nation there was what amounted to a world war called "King George's War" which led to the "French and Indian War" in 1750's America. The outcome of that war was the end of French influence in the Americas (for the most part) and supremacy for the British and the Colonists.

But, while the Brits won, the experience sent the Americans ever closer to independence because of the fact that the British Crown forced the Colonists to defend themselves causing the Colonists to begin to wonder why they needed the Brits in the first place. After this war, Benjamin Franklin began to suggest to his peers that we form a Union of colonies to organize for our governance and defense. It was an idea that resurfaced repeatedly until 1776 only twenty some years later.

On the other hand, and after a war over 150 years later, the allies in Europe felt they had won the Great War at Versailles, for instance. The Germans were beaten and the French, Americans and Brits were divvying up German territory and setting terms. A great win after so many millions of deaths. But the outcome of World War One was World War Two. The "win" turned into a further war.

Did the allies fully understand that their treatment of Germany as a result of the Versailles treaty would set the stage for the next World War so soon into the future as Wilson signed the treaty at Versailles?

Hardly.

Yet, USA Today thinks they fully understand the current actions in Iraq? They think they can predict and surely proclaim the war a failure?

Hardly.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: left; terrorism; usatoday
So, what do we all think here?
1 posted on 11/03/2006 7:17:40 AM PST by Mobile Vulgus
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To: Mobile Vulgus
Of course the war was the correct thing to do. Thanks to our brave troops and the leadership of President Bush, Saddam Hussein will never have WMDs again, nor will he ever be a threat to anyone ever again. We should always ask the anti-American left in this country, if they had been in charge, would Saddam Hussein still be in power?
2 posted on 11/03/2006 7:20:56 AM PST by pnh102
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To: Mobile Vulgus

Case closed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please thank William Broad, of The New York Times, for confirming Iraq's nuclear potential

Posted by rudy45
On 11/03/2006 7:06:22 AM PST · 17 replies · 413+ views

The New York Times ^
It sounds like the Bush decision to invade Iraq was the right thing to do after all. I think Mr. Broad, the author of this article, deserves a lot of credit for writing it, and that we should tell him so. He can be reached at 212-556-1234 or via email at broad@nytimes.com


3 posted on 11/03/2006 7:21:42 AM PST by conservativecorner
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To: Mobile Vulgus

USA Today(D), are campaigning.

The MSM have rewritten Saddam and Sons history, and rewritten history since 9/11.

It's all politics.


4 posted on 11/03/2006 7:24:44 AM PST by roses of sharon
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To: Mobile Vulgus

I look forward to the day when the Bush admin can explain about all the dead AlQaeda and other terrorists that went to the Iraq flypaper to die--leaving their cellphones and laptops for our intel guys. And Bush can thank the MSM and the Dims for making us look weak so that the terrorists would be encouraged to go fight and die.

I guess Bush adn Rove don't think they need to do this for this election cycle.


5 posted on 11/03/2006 7:27:16 AM PST by Poincare
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To: Mobile Vulgus

We kill al Qaeda and foriegn jihadists there every single day. I don't see a problem.


6 posted on 11/03/2006 7:31:56 AM PST by Thrownatbirth (.....when the sidewalks are safe for the little guy.)
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To: Mobile Vulgus

Have WE allowed the MSM to change our opinions on the war in Iraq?

I haven't.

The right thing is usually not the easy thing to do. Our troops should come home victorious, as heroes.

http://www.goodnewsiraq.com/index2.htm


7 posted on 11/03/2006 7:34:48 AM PST by rightinthemiddle (Without the Media, the Left and Islamofacists are Nothing.)
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To: Mobile Vulgus

Too early to say.


8 posted on 11/03/2006 7:34:57 AM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Mobile Vulgus

Was the Vote for Iraq War 'Right'?

I don't know. It's a really tough question
/sarcasm

Saddam's chambers of horrors


By MARGARET WENTE


Saturday, November 23, 2002 – Print Edition, Page A23


Abu Ghraib, 30 kilometres west of Baghdad, is Iraq's biggest prison. Until recently, it held perhaps 50,000 people, perhaps more. No one knows for sure. No one knows how many people were taken there through the years and never came out.

For a generation, Abu Ghraib was the centrepiece of Saddam Hussein's reign of torture and death. Yahya al-Jaiyashy is one of the survivors.

Mr. Jaiyashy is an animated, bearded man of 49 whose words can scarcely keep up with the torrent of his memories. Today he lives in Toronto with his second wife, Sahar. This week, he sat down with me to relate his story. With him were his wife, a lovely Iraqi woman in her mid-30s, and a friend, Haithem al-Hassan, who helped me with Mr. Jaiyashy's mixture of Arabic and rapid English.

"Nineteen seventy-seven was the first time I went to jail," he says. "I was not tortured that much."

He was in his mid-20s then, from an intellectual family that lived in a town south of Baghdad. He had been a student of Islamic history, language and religion in the holy city of Najaf, but was forced to quit his studies after he refused to join the ruling Ba'ath party. His ambition was to write books that would show how Islam could open itself up to modernism.

In Saddam's Iraq, this was a dangerous occupation, especially for a Shiite. Shia Muslims are the majority in Iraq, but Saddam and his inner circle are Sunni. Many Shiites were under suspicion as enemies of the state.

"My father was scared for me," says Mr. Jaiyashy. " 'You know how dangerous this regime is,' he told me. 'You know how many people they kill.' "

Mr. Jaiyashy continued his studies on his own. But, eventually, he was picked up, along with a dozen acquaintances who had been involved in political activity against the regime. They were sent to Abu Ghraib. The others did not get off as lightly as he did. One was killed by immersion into a vat of acid. Ten others, he recalls, were put into a room and torn apart by wild dogs. Several prominent religious leaders were also executed. One was a university dean, someone Mr. Jaiyashy remembers as "a great man." They drove a nail through his skull.

For three decades, the most vicious war Saddam has waged has been the one against his own people. Iraq's most devastating weapon of mass destruction is Saddam himself. And the most powerful case for regime change is their suffering.

Sometimes, it is almost impossible to believe the accounts of people who survived Saddam's chamber of horrors. They seem like twisted nightmares, or perhaps crude propaganda. But there are too many survivors who have escaped Iraq, too many credible witnesses. And Mr. Jaiyashy's story, horrible as it is, is not unusual.

Saddam personally enjoyed inflicting torture in the early years of his career, and he has modelled his police state after that of his hero, Stalin. According to Kenneth Pollack, a leading U.S. expert on Iraq, the regime employs as many as half a million people in its various intelligence, security and police organizations. Hundreds of thousands of others serve as informants. Neighbour is encouraged to inform on neighbour, children on their parents. Saddam has made Iraq into a self-policing totalitarian state, where everyone is afraid of everybody else.

"Being in Iraq is like creeping around inside someone else's migraine," says veteran BBC correspondent John Sweeney. "The fear is so omnipresent, you could almost eat it."

To Stalin's methods of arbitrary arrests and forced confessions, Saddam has added an element of sadism: the torture of children to extract information from their parents.

In northern Iraq -- the only place in the country where people can speak relatively freely -- Mr. Sweeney interviewed several people who had direct experience of child torture. He also met one of the victims -- a four-year-old girl, the daughter of a man who had worked for Saddam's psychopathic son Uday. When the man fell under suspicion, he fled to the Kurdish safe haven in the north. The police came for his wife and tortured her to reveal his whereabouts; when she didn't break, they took his daughter and crushed her feet. She was 2 then. Today, she wears metal braces on her legs, and can only hobble.

"This is a regime that will gouge out the eyes of children to force confessions from their parents and grandparents," writes Mr. Pollack in his new book, The Threatening Storm. "This is a regime that will hold a nursing baby at arm's length from its mother and allow the child to starve to death to force the mother to confess. This is a regime that will burn a person's limbs off to force him to confess or comply. This is a regime that will slowly lower its victims into huge vats of acid. . . .

"This is a regime that practises systematic rape against the female victims. This is a regime that will drag in a man's wife, daughter or other female relative and repeatedly rape her in front of him." And if he has fled the country, it will send him the video.

After nearly two years in prison, Mr. Jaiyashy was released and sent to do military service in the north. Then the security police decided to round up the followers of one of the executed clerics. In 1980, Mr. Jaiyashy was arrested again, along with 20 friends, and taken to a military prison. He was interrogated about criticisms he was supposed to have made of the regime, and urged to sign a confession. During one session, his wrists were tied to a ceiling fan. Then they turned on the fan. Then they added weights onto his body and did it again. Then somebody climbed on him to add more weight. "It was 20 minutes, but it seemed like 20 years," he recalls.

He was beaten with a water hose filled with stones. When he passed out, he was shocked back into consciousness with an electric cable. They hung him by his legs, pulled out a fingernail with pliers, and drove an electric drill through his foot.

Mr. Jaiyashy took off his right shoe and sock to show me his foot. It is grotesquely mutilated, with a huge swelling over the arch. There is an Amnesty International report on human-rights abuses in Iraq with a photo of a mutilated foot that looks identical to his. The baby finger on his left hand is also mutilated.

He didn't sign the confession. He knew that, if he did, they would eventually kill him.

They put him in solitary confinement, in a cell measuring two metres by two and a half, without windows or light. Every few weeks, they would bring him the confession again, but he refused to sign. He stayed there for a year.

In 1981, he was sent to trial, where he persuaded a sympathetic judge not to impose the death sentence. He got 10 years instead, and was sent back to Abu Ghraib. "They put me in a cell with 50 people. It was three and a half by three and a half metres. Some stood, some sat. They took turns."

There was a small window in the cell, with a view of a tree. It was the only living thing the prisoners could see. The tree was cut down. There were informants in the cells and, every morning, guards would come and take someone and beat him till he died. "This is your breakfast!" they would say.

Mr. Jaiyashy spent the next six years in that cell. His parents were told he was dead.

Abu Ghraib contained many intellectuals and professional people. Among them was the scientist Hussein Shahristani, a University of Toronto alumnus who became a leading nuclear scientist in Iraq. He was imprisoned after he refused to work on Saddam's nuclear program. He spent 10 years in Abu Ghraib, most of them in solitary confinement, until he escaped in 1991.

Saddam has reduced his people to abject poverty. He wiped out families, villages, cities and cultures, and drove four million people into exile. He killed between 100,000 and 200,000 Kurds. He killed as many as 300,000 Shiites in the uprising after the Persian Gulf war. He killed or displaced 200,000 of the 250,000 marsh Arabs who had created a unique, centuries-old culture in the south. He drained the marshes, an environmental treasure, and turned them into a desert.

In a recent Frontline documentary, a woman who fled Iraq recounted how she and others had been forced to witness the public beheadings of 15 women who had been rounded up for prostitution and other crimes against the state. One of the women was a doctor who had been misreported as speaking against the regime. "They put her head in a trash can," she said.

In 1987, Mr. Jaiyashy and a thousand other inmates were transferred to an outdoor prison camp. There, they were allowed a visit with their relatives, so long as they said nothing of their lives in prison. Mr. Jaiyashy's parents came, hoping he might still be alive. He remembers the day all the families came. "There was so much crying. We called it the crying day."

In 1989, he was finally released from prison. Then came the gulf war and, after that, the uprising, which he joined. It was quickly crushed. He fled with 150,000 refugees toward the Saudi border. But the Saudis didn't want them. "They are Wahhabis," he says. "They consider the Shia as infidels." The United Nations set up a refugee camp, where Mr. Jaiyashy spent the next six years. He began to paint and write again.

Finally, he was accepted as an immigrant to Canada. He arrived in Toronto in 1996, and is now a Canadian citizen.

Mr. Jaiyashy has a deep sense of gratitude toward his adoptive country. Canada, he says, has given him back his freedom and his dignity. He paints prolifically, and has taken courses at the art college, and is the author of three plays about the Saddam regime. He makes his living stocking shelves in a fabric store. "I'm a porter," he says. "No problem. I'm happy."

But Saddam's spies are everywhere. After one of his plays was produced here, his father was imprisoned. His first wife and three children are still in Iraq. He hasn't seen them since his youngest, now 12, was a baby. He talks with them on the phone from time to time, but it is very dangerous. One of his brothers is in Jordan, another still in Iraq.

Sahar, his second wife, is soft-spoken. She covers her head and dresses modestly, without makeup. Her face is unlined. She arrived in Canada with her two daughters the same year as Mr. Jaiyashy; they were introduced by friends.

She, too, has a story. I learned only the smallest part of it. "I was a widow," she told me. "My husband was a doctor in Iraq. He wanted to continue his education and have a specialty. But they didn't allow him. He deserted the military service to continue his education on his own. They beat him till he died."

Today, her daughters are in high school and she teaches at a daycare centre. Her new husband pushed her to study hard here. "ESL, ESL," she says affectionately.

Like many Iraqis, they are conflicted about the prospect of war. They want Saddam gone. But they do not want more harm inflicted on their country. "I want Saddam gone -- only him," says Mr. Jaiyashy.

A few weeks ago, Saddam threw open the doors of Abu Ghraib and freed the prisoners there. Many families rejoiced, and many others, who did not find their loved ones, mounted a brief, unheard-of protest against the regime. The prison is a ghost camp now. Nothing is left but piles of human excrement that cake the razor wire.

Saddam's Iraq is a rebuke to anyone who may doubt that absolute evil dwells among us. No one has put it better than Mr. Sweeney, the BBC reporter. "When I hear the word Iraq, I hear a tortured child screaming."


9 posted on 11/03/2006 7:48:21 AM PST by Valin (http://www.irey.com/)
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