Posted on 10/01/2006 7:58:27 AM PDT by dennisw
As Congress has debated legislation that would set up military tribunals and govern the questioning of suspected terrorists (whom the Bush administration would like to be able to detain indefinitely), at issue has been what interrogation techniques can be employed and whether information obtained during torture can be used against those deemed unlawful enemy combatants. One interrogation practice central to this debate is waterboarding. It's usually described in the media in a matter-of-fact manner. The Washington Post simply referred to waterboarding a few days ago as an interrogation measure that "simulates drowning." But what does waterboarding look like?
Below are photographs taken by Jonah Blank last month at Tuol Sleng Prison in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. The prison is now a museum that documents Khymer Rouge atrocities. Blank, an anthropologist and former Senior Editor of US News & World Report, is author of the books Arrow of the Blue-Skinned God and Mullahs on the Mainframe. He is a professorial lecturer at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and has taught at Harvard and Georgetown. He currently is a foreign policy adviser to the Democratic staff in the Senate, but the views expressed here are his own observations.
His photos show one of the actual waterboards used by the Khymer Rouge. Here's the first:
Here's another view:
How were they used? Here's a painting by a former prisoner that shows the waterboard in action:
In an email to me, Blank explained the significance of the photos. He wrote:
The crux of the issue before Congress can be boiled down to a simple question: Is waterboarding torture? Anybody who considers this practice to be "torture lite" or merely a "tough technique" might want to take a trip to Phnom Penh. The Khymer Rouge were adept at torture, and there was nothing "lite" about their methods. Incidentally, the waterboard in these photo wasn't merely one among many torture devices highlighted at the prison museum. It was one of only two devices singled out for highlighting (the other was another form of water-torture--a tank that could be filled with water or other liquids; I have photos of that too.) There was an outdoor device as well, one the Khymer Rouge didn't have to construct: chin-up bars. (The prison where the museum is located had been a school before the Khymer Rouge took over). These bars were used for "stress positions"-- another practice employed under current US guidelines. At the Khymer Rouge prison, there is a tank of water next to the bars. It was used to revive prisoners for more torture when they passed out after being placed in stress positions.
The similarity between practices used by the Khymer Rouge and those currently being debated by Congress isn't a coincidence. As has been amply documented ("The New Yorker" had an excellent piece, and there have been others), many of the "enhanced techniques" came to the CIA and military interrogators via the SERE [Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape] schools, where US military personnel are trained to resist torture if they are captured by the enemy. The specific types of abuse they're taught to withstand are those that were used by our Cold War adversaries. Why is this relevant to the current debate? Because the torture techniques of North Korea, North Vietnam, the Soviet Union and its proxies--the states where US military personnel might have faced torture--were NOT designed to elicit truthful information. These techniques were designed to elicit CONFESSIONS. That's what the Khymer Rouge et al were after with their waterboarding, not truthful information.
Bottom line: Not only do waterboarding and the other types of torture currently being debated put us in company with the most vile regimes of the past half-century; they're also designed specifically to generate a (usually false) confession, not to obtain genuinely actionable intel. This isn't a matter of sacrificing moral values to keep us safe; it's sacrificing moral values for no purpose whatsoever.
These photos are important because most of us have never seen an actual, real-life waterboard. The press typically describes it in the most anodyne ways: a device meant to "simulate drowning" or to "make the prisoner believe he might drown." But the Khymer Rouge were no jokesters, and they didn't tailor their abuse to the dictates of the Geneva Convention. They-- like so many brutal regimes--made waterboarding one of their primary tools for a simple reason: it is one of the most viciously effective forms of torture ever devised.
The legislation backed by Bush and congressional Republicans would explicitly permit the use of evidence obtained through waterboarding and other forms of torture. Khalid Sheikh Muhammad and other top al Qaeda leaders have reportedly been subjected to this technique. They would certainly note--or try to note--that at any trial. But with this legislation, the White House is seeking to declare the use of waterboarding (at least in the past) as a legitimate practice of the US government.
The House of Representatives voted for Bush's bill on Thursday, 253 to 168 (with 34 Democrats siding with the president and only seven Republicans breaking with their party's leader). The Senate is expected to vote on the bill today. Its members should consider Blank's photos and arguments before they, too, go off the deep end.
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I posted this for the photios.... I don't agree with Corn. Water boarding is not torture the way we do it
Looks like fun. I'll have to try it next Summer. But shouldn't one wear a life vest? /s
I hope Corn experienced it, so he would have first-hand knowledge.
Oh, come on, David, at least try for 5 minutes.
Excellent post!
(David) Corn? I saw him in my stool this morning.
couldn't resist -- not trying to make light of any abuse).
Where Dave is wrong is we use water boarding to interrogate. Not to torture and interrogate the way the Khmer Rouge did. We do it quick and clean. We are not sadists
I can see why Liberals and Muzzies would consider this torture. It simulates TAKING A SHOWER.
Begs the question: Is torture ever appropriate? My recollection is that the Guy Fawkes plot was brought to light by torture. The liberal would have preferred that king and Parliament have been blown to smithereens?
Actually that's what it looked like under the Khmer Rouge. Somehow I suspect it looks much different when we use it and it doesn't end with death as it did under the Khmer Rouge.
Kinda stupid to bring it up actually.
So we should ask Corn--what is your point?
The libs just don't get it.
God forbid they should ever have control of Gitmo.
The liberal definition of torture is any effective interrogation method we use. If we do sleep deprivation thats torture
Please do note that my commentary in post 13 was directed to the writer of
the article.
Thanks for posting the article. It's good "grist for the mill" on this topic.
What's wrong with treating the terrorist prisoners exactly the same as the terrorists treat prisoners?
To paraphrase, the Geneva convention is not a suicide pact. Name one enemy of the US that has abided by it.
I heard the lipless corn and his boyfriend have used water boarding as a sexual tool for years! ;-)
LLS
No problem. The photos are helpful ...David Corn's editorializing is useless
If we had been using waterboarding to get fake confessions instead of good intel then our intelligence services would be pretty damn stupid. Corn seems to be confusing the method with the purpose. You could use this method for actionable intelligence, fake confessions or just because you like doing it. If you are doing one of the last two you are just wasting time.
I also seriously believe that if the CIA were to come up with the ultimate truth serum - no side effects, no way to fake results and the person being questioned is awake and lucid instead of drowsy and confused - the Dems would be against using it if it helped President Bush win the war. Their hatred for the President seems to far outweigh any love for their country they might have.
I'd have preferred their using a 200PSI firefighting nozzle, but that's just me.
This is what Islamic Terrorist treatment of their prisoners looks like.
This is what a Weekend with Teddy looks like.
It's hard to find much sympathy for their feigned umbrage at our moral "lapses."
Actually, it looks kind of fun......
They're doing it wrong. They should be using a fire hose.
Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing about weight when I heard they get 4000 calories a day at Gitmo for Ramadan. Seems like we are going to have a detainee obesity problem. I think the strategy is to fatten up the terrorists and render them harmless. Something we Americans are very good at, fattening up the enemy.
Seems to me an efficient method of taking care of business (as read below.) But Corn leaves this information out conveniently. Also note- he's turned off the comments on that article, feigning server problems. uh huh.
I always love it when the libs try to play the moral relativity game where they leave out the part about why interrogations take place. Saving lives apparently is not moral, taking care of the psyche of murderers is much more important. Maybe they ought to bring in Dr. Phil to deal with these terrorists. Yeah, that ought to do it. /s
"According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last over two minutes before begging to confess."
Best used with pig urine rather than water for maximum effect...
President Bush said it worked on the 14 most hardened terrorists such as khalid shek mohamed. Nothing else tried had worked. It prevented 8 al qaeda attacks within our borders. Is that good enough for you?
LLS
The Germans in WWII. There were some exceptions, to be sure -- the Battle of the Bulge incident and, on occasion, the Waffen SS. But, for the most part, the Germans scrupulously followed the Conventions with their US, British and Dominion prisoners.
Neither side followed the Geneva Convention on the Eastern Front, of course. But I don't believe the Soviets were signatories.
We don't commit atrocities, Corn, you traitorous scumbag.
Can you read? I said IF the intel was dubious ... If what you're relating is true (and you have no way of knowing that it is except by believing George Bush), then the intel obviously was NOT dubious.
I also said that I have no moral qualms about pursuing this technique. My sole concern was the value of the information being produced.
Playing Lynryd Skynyrd loudly is also considered torture, as my kids will testify.
Bottom line: Not only do newpapers, television and the other types of mass communications currently being inflicted on the public put us in company with the most vile regimes of the past half-century; they're also designed specifically to generate a (usually false) impression, not to diseminate genuinely intelligent, factual information.
I think David Corn should demonstrate it for us. He probably doesn't care that our military Pilots go through the same thing. What would a wuss like David know about that?!
"IF" does not cut it... not even close!
I have met President Bush. I have looked eye to eye into the man. I have faith in GOD, and I have faith in our President. I do not have faith in the media, except for Rush and Brit Hume. It was Hume that stated the facts that I gave you, and it came from CIA reports, interviews with agents in the field, and President Bush himself.
LLS
I suspect David is "belly up to the bar" in that place ~ all too often.
Assuming you are taking a shower in the bidet.
The fact that you're mentioning the two in the same sentence and according them the same credibility tells me all I need to know.
I am dumbstruck with what the dems are doing to themselves. i work with a lot of apolitical people but lately those whom i work with cannot understand why the dems oppose wiretaps and interegation. They are risking putting themselves into the electoral abyss. It doesnt seem the average joe doesnt get to upset that alquida might get a little wet in order to get vital info
How can these idiots be so disconnected - and right. . . the more 'false' info they get. . .the better!
The rationale here is no different than their twisted logic that has them concluding that America on the 'offense' of WOT has created more terrorists. . .
(Imagine. . .If only we would make it easier; so they would have to use less manpower. . - and of course, we have a Dimwit Party that is willing to do just that). . ).
Nacny Pelosi denying the insult of their Party being 'soft' on terrorism; when just prior; she offered her spiritual resolve re WOT. . .'we should treat our enemies. . .as we would have then treat us'. . .
ANY Dems that should read ANY of the above. . . PLEASE take note. . .re your VOTE
How can these idiots be so disconnected - and right. . . the more 'false' info they get. . .the better!
The rationale here is no different than their twisted logic that has them concluding that America on the 'offense' of WOT has created more terrorists. . .
(Imagine. . .If only we would make it easier; so they would have to use less manpower. . - and of course, we have a Dimwit Party that is willing to do just that). . ).
Nacny Pelosi denying the insult of their Party being 'soft' on terrorism; when just prior; she offered her spiritual resolve re WOT. . .'we should treat our enemies. . .as we would have then treat us'. . .
ANY Dems that should read ANY of the above. . . PLEASE take note. . .re your VOTE
No prisoner of American forces ever has to undergo waterboarding, or any other interrogation technique. All they have to do is give us the information we request. If they do this, no discomfort will come to them.
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