Posted on 07/25/2006 11:35:38 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
I would rather live next door to a Mormon rathar than a Muslim. That's my criteria.
Gosh, I hope that doesen't sound intolerant!
I would rather live next door to a Mormon rather than a Muslim. That's my criteria.
Gosh, I hope that doesen't sound intolerant!
I'll bet you go to church with a Bible in your hand and think how very lucky God is to have YOU.
Chapters 12-17 are particularly good and focused on Utah and Mormons. I especially recommend Twain's analysis of the Mormon Bible: http://www.mtwain.com/Roughing_It/17.html
Yes I do go to church with a bible in my hand, maybe mormons should try it.
ex-mormon
I have posted about the "Journal of Discourses" before not being church canon or "church teachings" as you term it. I will copy it here for you.
The Journal of Discourses is not Doctrine or accepted Canon of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. A little history of the JD shows why. (simplified and summarized by me)
A member of the Church attended various meetings and conferences of the Church, in his own version of shorthand he copied down the sermons. Some of the talks he did not write at the time but up to a few weeks later as he best remembered them. He did this over a period of approximately 25 years. He decided that all this material should be published. So he did publish the material privately for which he received money (profits). To do so he had to reconstruct what he meant by his shorthand from the past 25 years. This man was not called by the church or held any position as recorder or historian. What he wrote is very valuable material for historians and people interested in the what early apostles and prophets "probably" said. It does provide a great window into some early sermons of early church leaders it is clearly not accepted as Canon of the Church.
I have personally had non Mormons tell me that I believe the "Adam-God Theory" and "Blood Atonement" by using quotes from the Journal of Discourses. They are both false principles. (Though I agree with the idea that a murderer's blood should be spilt. It just doesn't have any effect on his consequence in the afterlife.
So a man who makes his living being a satirist is more objective and accurate? He didn't have a profit motive at all to sell his books did he? He in no way could have stretched the truth just a tad in the name of humor could he?
I love Mark Twain's writings. I will add this book to my to read list. I consider him a pretty dang good novelist.... But that doesn't mean he is an expert on the Mormon faith.
As an ex-mormon you probably realize that Mormons (like me) do carry a Bible to church along with the Book of Mormon.
I think the previous poster was being sarcastic but forgot the /s tag.
I am interested in your source for your statement "child molester Jospeh Smith" so we can openly examine it here on FR to see if it will stand the light of day or be kicked to the curb like so many baseless slanderous "Drive by Media statements".
As for "Tyrant" I would say it might be a little much but he was described as a "Lion" and "Modern Moses".
Actually Moses in the OT was described in similar terms by the Israleites. I am sure some of them considered Moses a tough leader. He is even criticized by his sister Miriam and brother Aaron.
Ex. 16: 2 And the whole congregation of the children of Israel amurmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness:
Num. 14: 2 And all the children of Israel amurmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!
Num. 16:41 But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD.
However, see my post #17 if you need more clarification as to the reason for my denuciation of yours and anyone else's negative posts.
You obviously have a very dull axe to grind with the church as an "ex" mormon. Were you "ex"-communicated for behavior and feel that it was unjust, thus your hatred for any and all things mormon?
Or is it that you have a small and intolerant mind and YOU have determined that it's not up to God to sort it out come judgement day?
SZ
I don't claim Twain is a 100% accurate reporter, but he's a hell of a lot closer to the original source than anyone from the current Mormon power structure, which has been regularly rewriting its own history for over a century. He was actually IN Utah in the 1800s. And his analysis of the Mormon Bible contains more direct quotes from the source than most current reporters would ever bother to include, and thank God, is totally free of political correctness.
Smith was lynched?
Actually I was ex-communicated by request after studying the Bible. No hate here - I love the mormon people and admire the culture of their church, it's their theology and their false prophet that can't pass the test.
However, claiming that Twain is closer to Joseph Smith and early church leaders than current church leaders is stretching it a little. Many if not most current Church leaders are related to Joseph Smith and/or Brigham Young.
President Hinkley, the current prophet, is Ira Hinkley's grandson, who knew all the early leaders personally, crossed the plains, rescued the handcart companies, blah blah blah... you get the picture.
I think claiming personal connection is a valid position, and being able to read their original journals and documents. The Church is the largest holder of original historical documents (both pro and anti) about Mormonism. Interestingly, more books have been written about Joseph Smith than Geroge Washington.
As a child in our Ward (many years ago) my dad home taught an old lady who's father had met Joseph Smith (she was born when her father was in his 70's). Had he been a novelist what would he have written?
My family has personal diaries and accounts from their early Mormon history. Just because Twain is popular does not invalidate the personal journals I have from people who were also eyewitness to events. I am guessing Twain's take on Mormonism is typical of others outsiders from the time period. I am not saying Twain's account has no historical value either, or would be good for someone interested in early church history. I look forward to reading it. I am saying he is not a "more" legitimate source than many others who have written about Mormons. Just because Twain was in Utah does not make him an expert. By this line of reasoning Mormons in Utah would be the experts since they lived in Utah instead of visiting.
I do appreciate that he did actually read the Book of Mormon and am fine if he didn't believe it personally. To be honest many critics I have spoken with have not read the actual document. It's like when liberals talk about seperation of church and state in the constitution yet have no idea what's really in there.
Twain was opposed to organized religion. He has quite a few anti-Presbetyrian Quotes. Does his opinion invalidate Presbyterianism? When reading his work on Mormons his anti organized relgion bias should be understood.
The "Mormon Bible" is the King James Version of the Bible. The Book of Mormon is another book of scripture written here in the Americas translated by Joseph Smith.
I don't have time to read the whole thing right now but have found quite a few mistakes in the first few paragraphs of chapter 12. He calls the Mormon book "copper plates". In the book itself they are referred to as gold plates. I wonder how “deeply” he read the book rather than using it as a foil to present his own style and opinions.
His quotes from Jacob 2 in the Book of Mormon to prove Polygamy is wrong according to the Book of Mormon. He leaves out the next verse after his quote that states, "30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." He chops off the quote to fit his agenda.
Twain mentions plagiarism of the Bible for which he provides no examples. This is sort of like Ann Coulter’s book has gotten treated by the liberal press as discussed here on FR. The Book of Mormon itself quotes Isaiah from the Old Testament. The Prophet writing openly states he is quoting Isaiah from the scriptures they had at the time. This is not plagiarism as the original source is cited.
Twain himself states in the intro. "This book is merely a personal narrative," He traveled through Utah and stayed for a bit. So If I go to Rome on Vacation for two months do I become an expert on the Catholic church in all its intricacy, symbolism, writings and the faith and culture of its people? No.
Twain is a awesome fictional writer whom I admire. I don’t mean this to sound like a hit piece on him. I love his books. In this book he calls the Book of Mormon, "Chloroform in Print." While I totally disagree with his analysis even I have to admit it's a pretty dang good phrase. I can't think of a good comeback for it.
If we compare the Book of Mormon to Twain's writings, more copies of Joseph Smith’s “book” have been printed and translated into more languages than Twain’s work combined. The Book of Mormon has been listed as one of the 25 most influential books. (Don’t worry the Bible is on the list). Joseph Smith’s has had more influence than Mark Twain.
No doubt. Some well-dressed kid tried to give me one in the supermarket parking lot just last week! But seriously - thanks for the response. I've been enjoying reading some Twain on that site the last few days. But fully realize that it is all either biased or pure fiction - or both.
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