Posted on 07/17/2006 8:35:45 AM PDT by STD
Scout Snipers Break in New Rifles
Ft. A.P. Hill, VA. - Scout Snipers from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit's Battalion Landing Team, 2nd Bn., 2nd Marine Regiment, fired their new rifles for the first time on a range here today.
The BLT Marines will use the new MK-11 semi-automatic sniper rifle simultaneously alongside the bolt-action M40A3, a descendent of the Vietnam-era M40.
The rifle resembles an M-16 on first glance, and Sgt. Gerald V. Gavin, Scout Sniper Platoon commander, said the resemblance can benefit operations on today's urban battlefields.
Gavin said the distinct look of the M40A3 makes identifying a sniper in an infantry patrol easier. The MK-11 allows the sniper to better blend in with the infantry, making them less vulnerable.
Gavin said the semi-automatic action on the new rifle, as well as the addition of a suppressor system that reduces muzzle flash and report, make it a valuable addition to the inventory.
The MK-11 comes fitted with the Scout Sniper Day Scope (SSDS), which the Marine Corps also is attaching to its existing inventory of M40A3s.
Gavin said the new scope improves the snipers ability to engage targets, offering enhanced sighting ability and ease of use. "It's a great piece of glass," he said.
Lance Cpl. James K. Dagenhart agreed with Gavin's opinion of the MK-11, and said he prefers the MK-11.
"I like it because it's semi-auto, and I love the scope. . . the new scope is money," Dagenhart said.
The MK-11 weighs 18.29 pounds fully loaded with its two-pound suppressor attached, while the M40A3 weighs in at 18.5 fully loaded.
Both rifles fire the same 7.62 mm round, and the MK-11 is accurate up to 800 yards.
Gavin said he thinks the MK-11 is a great weapon, although he is still partial to his experience with the M40A3.
The BLT and Scout Snipers will continue to train with the MEU's Aviation and Logistics Combat Elements here until the end of the month. The training at Fort A.P. Hill is the MEU's first step in a six-month pre-deployment training process designed to merge the disparate elements of the MEU into a cohesive, rapid reaction force. The 26th MEU will continue to prepare for an early 2007 deployment in support of the Global War on Terrorism. Sound Off...What do you think? Join the discussion.
I think the Mk11 is the Knights SR-25.
The Army SASS is built on the Armalite, IIRC.
DISCLAIMER:
I'm sure someone other (than me) fat, white, early 40's 200+ lb Mall Ninja (4th Degree) will be along to chime in.
If I had to run from the couch to the fridge for more Fritos dip I'd have to stop and rest half way, but I can recall useless trivia about interesting things in a single bound.
Photos! What happened to the rules?
Thanks. I want.
Will the Semi's be as accurate? Never found a auto/semi to be as accurate as bolt action.
Why is he shooting through a croquet hoop?
The more moving parts from ignition to exit out of the end of the barrel, the more the barrel vibrates, like a tuning fork, and is in a dirrent place than the last time the bullet exited.
Marine Corps gun control: "One shot, one kill."
Semper Fi,
Kelly
Have you never played croquet to the death?
Kind of what I thought.
It helps keep it fun.
No.......let me explain the nuance' of this style of shooting.
He is on the downrange end of the projectile (see iron target face down). The shooter pictured has to return fire and place his round down the muzzle of the originating weapon. Sometimes the elevation is a click off and the round ends up in the scope of the oppsing shooter ... but fortunately, Marine medics are pretty accomplished with bandaids and such.
Not only is the AR platform as accurate as any bolt gun, it is much easier to build and the useful life of the barrel is twice as long.
Now if they would issue it in 7.62.
I was wondering about the spent cartridges. I thought that one of the reasons to use a bolt action rifle was to control the spent ejection of the cartridge.
"Both rifles fire the same 7.62 mm round, and the MK-11 is accurate up to 800 yards"
One of these days I'm going to have to learn to read.
Would this make a scoped SR-25 qualify as a "service rifle" in the high-power rifle competition sense of the term?
Out of the box, an AR action is often more accurate than a bolt action. A highly tuned AR action is probably slightly less accurate than a highly tuned bolt action built from a good platform (like a Rem 700), but on any given day that may shave fractions of an inch at several hundred meters. Benchrest differences that generally won't affect a sniper in other words.
You are correct that most semi-autos are not as accurate as bolt guns, but the AR action is the exception to that rule. A few basic mods (part swaps) on an AR15 will have it running rings around your average bolt gun in the accuracy department. As the AR shows, semi-autos are not intrinsically inaccurate, it is just that most semi-autos were designed for uses where accuracy doesn't matter too much. The AR was designed for military purposes, but many aspects of its design make it an intrinsically accurate rifle.
In this new rifle, the Marines have an excellent sniper rifle that can also function as a battle rifle out of the box. Army SF has been using these particular rifles for ages already, so they are proven quantities. Extremely accurate.
Looks like a Harris bipod. What are the optics - Leupold Mark 4 LR/T M2? Nice - and expensive.
The USMC and their newest toy. When you care enough to send the very best...500 meters downrange at a couple thousand feet per second.
}:-)4
Yeah... that open action on (most) semi's is a terror on accuracy more times than not. although I have an acquaintance who says his russian SKS will do sub MOA if the barrel is cold.
My AK will barely do 2MOA with a cold barrel, on a good day, with match ammo. With that russian ammo, I'm lucky if it hits 3MOA.
This can only be considered a supplement to the M 40. It doesn't have the range of the M 40 -1000 meters. Do I detect a change in the mission of the SCOUT snipers? Or are Scout-snipers a new PC name (later they'll drop the sniper portion like they've dropped the range of the weapon).
"Will the Semi's be as accurate? Never found a auto/semi to be as accurate as bolt action."
give or take nowadays 1 moa for semi's , and in the same price range, .5 to 1 moa for bolts.
dollar for dollar you will usually get better accuracy with a bolt. .
Two words:
Safety
Nazis
"This can only be considered a supplement to the M 40. It doesn't have the range of the M 40 -1000 meters"
they also have .50 cals. seems like they could have a .50 per team for those lonnnng shots. (?)
That was my thought - maybe this is how they qualify, by hitting croquet balls?
The MK11 is 7.62mm. The Marines screwed up the DMR program 14 years ago when they could have purchased the same rifle. Internal rice bowl politics saw that the M14 DMR was selected. It was a failure. BTW, no semi-automatic weapon will ever exceed the accuracy of a bolt gun (tighter tolerances available on a bolt gun). The MK11 has its own problems. In the future look for the MK11 to be replaced by the Special Operations Combat Assualt Rifle, Sniper Version.
http://www.aaoutfitter.com/Prairie%20Dogs.htm
OK, let's hear 'em - which ones offer the biggest improvement, and what's the approximate cost (for those of us with ARs, who want to make real tackdrivers out of them)? Thanks.
Well, that would make sense but no, not in categories that us mere mortals compete in.
Fixed sights, no removable carry handles on AR types, mucho Garand/03 style reloads....
I still like the old school HPSR shoots though....
Range is overemphasized sub funtion of sniping. Most 7.62mm shots in desert, open terrain are between 400 to 800 yards. Shots beyond 800 yards are rare and offer a low probability of hit. Today the snipers are working in urban terrain at shorter ranges with a great concern for rear security. What they want is a suppressed, semi-automatic rifle that allows for accurate shots but does not make noise and provides them with multiple (20 round magazine) follow-on shots if needed. The ranges snipers are engaging in Iraq is around 200 to 400 yards. This is within the operating range of the AK-47s. Afghanistan is where snipers are using their bolt guns and SASRs.
That was my thought - maybe this is how they qualify, by hitting croquet balls
I can only guess that spot is exactly in line the target - where you are shooting exactly 90 dgress perpendicular to the target downrange. Maybe if you are off to the side a foot or two it could move the bullet an inch or two to the side by the time it hits the paper target.
() -----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Becuase the target is so far down range that it can't be seen with the naked eye. The Croquet hoop helps him locate it from the others next to it.
I like the occasional John C. Garand matches ... I 'fit in' instead of feeling like Julius Caesar in a Buck Rogers world.
There are only a few mods required to extract most of the capability out of a rack-grade AR. The cheap mods are to free float the barrel and replace the trigger with a match trigger (e.g. a Jewell), which together will run you a couple hundred bucks. These two mods will have you shooting sub-MOA all day if you use decent ammo and the barrel isn't total crap. The only other mod worth mentioning is installing a good match barrel, which can run some serious bucks. These three mods, plus good match ammo, you'll have a very competitive shooter. It won't be benchrest accurate, but only the benchrest guys would notice. One would have to drop a lot of dough on a bolt gun to compete with the accuracy. You can find a lot of information on accurizing ARs on the Internet, and reliably getting impressive accuracy out of it is not terribly hard -- the mods are easily done by any amateur home AR mechanic.
"Not only is the AR platform as accurate as any bolt gun, it is much easier to build and the useful life of the barrel is twice as long.
Now if they would issue it in 7.62."
You won't get any semi as accurate as a bolt gun... but it is easier to build and the barrel life is close to being the same as on a bolt gun if not a bit shorter. The AR10 is in .308 also known as 7.62x51mm.
Having built some very accurate semi's and some precision bolt guns in my day, there is no way to make a semi reliable and consistant while maintaining the kind of accuracy that a precision bolt action rifle like the M40 achieves.
Mike
I need to get a Garand. I have a very low number 03A3 that looks unissued and I shoot it a couple times a year but a mongrel Garand would be sweet....
A couple of years ago I fired an SR-25 that was made to resemble the Mk-11Mod0. It was interesting.
Much easier to shoot sub-MOA than an M14 but very intolerant of dirt.
I'm used to shooting heavier 45 cal rounds but I am curious what the specs of the round are.
Bullet weight?
Grains of powder?
is this 7.62 round a 39 or 54 grain version?
Take that, Alice! And your little white rabbit, too!
"there is no way to make a semi reliable and consistant while maintaining the kind of accuracy that a precision bolt action rifle like the M40 achieves."
If you are talking about M14s I'll agree with you but the AR platform is different. The advantages are simple - Threaded collar over threaded collar barrel attachment, no bedding to perfect or go bad, no gas piston/op rod harmonics to be concerned with. Building a sub minute AR is as simple as buying good parts and screwing them together. Anyone can do it.
The real difference between a bolt gun and a semi is in trigger control. A bolt gun allows the shooter to milk the trigger, constantly improving the sight picture until the rifle fires. A gas gun requires the shooter to pull more quickly and follow through by pinning the trigger back while the gun recoils. Failure to do this will often lead to doubles as the rifle recoils away from the trigger finger, resets, then runs into the finger again on it's way back forward. This is often seen on gas guns with rather light triggers and inexperienced operators.
One has to remember that the gas guns will be issued to "designated marksmen" and that it will be perfect for this role. The Corps will retain the outstanding M40 for "precision" work.
"Bullet weight?
Grains of powder?
is this 7.62 round a 39 or 54 grain version?"
Standard 7.62 NATO round. The ball round is a 147 grain spitzer boat tail FMJ at 2700 FPS. The "long range" round is the M852, a 168 grain HPBT at 2600 FPS. The "grains of powder" is impossible to answer as the factories get powder by the train car load. Every load has slightly different properties and the powder charge varies accordingly.
I think you are confused about "a 39 or 54 grain version". The two common Com-Bloc .30s have case lengths of 39 and 54 millimeters. The NATO round has a case length of 51 millimeters.
The standard issue accuratized ammo is M118LR. I don't know the weights and grains, you could look it up. Lake City makes it.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
