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Ethanol in Gasoline: Not a Good Deal for the Consumers
Hawaii Reporter ^ | 2Jul 06 | Michael R. Fox Ph.D.,

Posted on 07/07/2006 11:18:10 AM PDT by xzins

Ethanol in Gasoline: Not a Good Deal for the Consumers By Michael R. Fox Ph.D., 7/2/2006 11:14:32 PM People buying into the myth that Ethanol is our energy ace have simply got to beware.

In Hawaii, that includes The Honolulu Advertiser pushing it (June 20, 2006), and in recent weeks Hawaiian Electric Co. spokespeople, Governor Linda Lingle, and local radio talk show hosts. We had the Bill O'Reilly/Sen. John Kerry love fest on June 29 asserting the ethanol option is the right one. Even President George W. Bush has been swayed by the rhetoric.

These politically correct solutions to our energy supply problems, if allowed to persist, are beyond silly and quite dangerous. Too few understand what energy is and does; too few know what goes on upstream of the gas pumps and behind the electrical switches.

There are many good handbooks of chemistry and engineering which can add considerable information to all. There are all too few engineers involved with these debates as well. Thus, according to American Automobile Manufacturers Association, the energy content in a gallon of Ethanol is well known to be about 76,000 Btu/gallon of ethanol. Gasoline by contrast contains about 50 percent more energy at 114,000 Btu/gal. (The British thermal unit, Btu, is one of many commonly used units of energy)

As Ethanol is mixed with gasoline, the energy per gallon of the mixed fuel drops, being diluted with the less energetic ethanol. The E85 mixture (85 percent Ethanol) contains 83,260 Btu/gal. Obviously, this is less energy than is in the gasoline itself, and as a result, the mileage will therefore drop.

A major reason why Ethanol is so popular in the United States is the presence of huge subsidies throughout, not because of any magical energy sources.

There are subsidies for growing the corn, for building the distilleries, and a 51 cent subsidy for every gallon of ethanol produced. This is to say that the taxpayers are paying much of the Ethanol tab. Whatever the consumers pay at the pump is so much the better for the ethanol lobby.

This excludes state tax credits and other subsidies.

For the record according to Patzek, in the 10 years from 1995 to 2004, taxpayers spent $41.9 billion in corn subsidies.

Currently, according to Patzek (UC Berkeley The Real Biofuel Cycles April 17, 2006), there is an estimated total ethanol tax credit of 57cents per gallon.

This is collected by the Ethanol lobby, too. Just to make things sweeter, the U.S. has erected import tariffs on imported ethanol of more than 50 cents/gallon to defend against lower cost imports of that Brazilian ethanol. This helps to inflate the price of ethanol to the consumers, quite similar to the tariffs erected to protect the US sugar lobby.

According to Tad Patzek, the true costs of corn ethanol to the taxpayers are $3.12 per gallon of ethanol, or $4.74 per gallon of gasoline equivalent GGE—to adjust for the energy difference in the two fuels).

This sleight of hands bears studying. If ethanol at the pump shows a price of say $2.75/gallon, and that for gasoline is $3.00/gallon some would conclude that the ethanol is the cheaper energy. It’s not. Since the gallon of ethanol contains only 65% of the energy of the gallon of gasoline, the price for the ethanol per gallon of gasoline equivalent (GGE), is $2.75 / 0.65 = $4.23/gallon. This is not a good deal for the consumers.

A closer look is needed at the “great Ethanol successes” in Brazil claimed by television host Bill Oreilly, Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass, and others. It’s a completely different situation.

First, Brazilian Ethanol is made from sugar cane, not corn, and is a much more suitable source of ethanol. Furthermore, the sugar cane grows all year around.

We can’t grow corn year round in the US, nor is it very well suited for ethanol, nor can we grow sugar cane in the Midwest climates. Brazil is in many ways a 3rd world country certainly not fully developed and not nearly as productive and energy intensive as the U.S.

Many families do not own any cars and the cars which do exist are much smaller. The population is smaller, 62 percent of the US at 186 million. Brazil also has vast tracts of very cheap land available for agriculture.

Ethanol has a great number of engineering problems to be a serious energy source for the future, not the least of which is its relatively low energy density 76,000 Btu/gal. For our leaders to be throwing out these superficial one-line energy solutions for uninformed Americans is as dangerous as it is misleading. There are many long range cost and performance uncertainties in comparing sugar cane, sugar beets, and corn infrastructures needed in the manufacture of ethanol.

In all cases the crops require long term agricultural operations, infrastructure, and investment including water, land, and energy, nutrients (fertilizers) of millions of acres of land.

In spite of the exaggerations the word is getting out about the dubious nature of Ethanol. The Salt Lake Tribune wrote (June 29, 2006):

“We don't make ethanol from corn because it is efficient..... And we don't use corn because it is environmentally friendly. Growing it sucks up huge amounts of energy and water and leaves tons of chemicals adrift in the ecosystem. We make ethanol mostly out of corn because it is astoundingly plentiful, thanks to decades of heavy federal subsidies.”

We’d do well to remember what John Fitzgerald Kennedy said: “The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth - persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.”

Michael R. Fox, Ph.D., is the energy and science writer for Hawaii Reporter. He has nearly 40 years experience in the energy field. He has also taught chemistry and energy at the University level. His interest in the communications of science has led to several communications awards, hundreds of speeches, and many appearances on television and talk shows. He can be reached via email at mailto:foxm011@hawaii.rr.com


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Iowa
KEYWORDS: economy; energy; epa; ethanol; farming; fuelefficiency; gasoline; gasprices; govwatch; shellgame; taxdollarsatwork; youpayforthis
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1 posted on 07/07/2006 11:18:12 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins

But when gasoline reached $4 a gallon, will it make more sense?


2 posted on 07/07/2006 11:20:04 AM PDT by BurbankKarl
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To: All

Another perspective on the ethanol issue.

Is independence or efficiency more important? I believe I've read elsewhere that there's not enough ethanol that CAN be produced in the US to replace gasoline. There'll have to be other alternatives as well.


3 posted on 07/07/2006 11:20:34 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
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To: xzins

Woah.

Back to the drawing board.


4 posted on 07/07/2006 11:21:42 AM PDT by Danae (Anál nathrach, orth' bháis's bethad, do chél dénmha)
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To: BurbankKarl

In the article it explains that ethanol has less BTUs than gasoline. Therefore, a $3 gallon of gasoline has the same energy as a $4+ gallon of ethanol.


5 posted on 07/07/2006 11:22:21 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
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To: xzins

If I am paying $3.19/gal for 93 octane, am I getting 93? If not, I want a refund from the vendor. The pumps at my local 7-Eleven say "Contains 10% Ethanyl"


6 posted on 07/07/2006 11:23:08 AM PDT by LetsRok
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To: BurbankKarl
Let me restate that last by using the article. I stated it poorly (wrongly):

According to Tad Patzek, the true costs of corn ethanol to the taxpayers are $3.12 per gallon of ethanol, or $4.74 per gallon of gasoline equivalent GGE—to adjust for the energy difference in the two fuels).

7 posted on 07/07/2006 11:24:12 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
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To: xzins

So how much energy does diesel have compared to gasoline?


8 posted on 07/07/2006 11:25:14 AM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: LetsRok
I don't think Octane equates to BTU.

Octane, by definition, is the resistance to burn or detonation. The higher the rating, the slower the burn when ignited during the compression burn cycle of the piston. The higher octane allows for better control of burning for high compression engines. So we want to match the correct octane rating of the gasoline to the engine design to ensure complete burning of the gasoline by the engine for maximum fuel economy and clean emissions. http://theserviceadvisor.com/octane.htm

9 posted on 07/07/2006 11:27:19 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
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To: xzins
with the push of e-85 shouldn't the headline read:
"Gasoline in Ethanol not a good deal...."
10 posted on 07/07/2006 11:27:20 AM PDT by stylin19a
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To: LetsRok

Octane rating is the resistance to detonation under compression, it is not a measure of the amount of energy per unit volume.

93 Octane gasoline must be used in a higher compression engine to prevent knocking. 93 Octane gasoline used in an engine rated for 87 Octane is a pure waste of money.


11 posted on 07/07/2006 11:27:54 AM PDT by Yo-Yo (USAF, TAC, 12th AF, 366 TFW, 366 MG, 366 CRS, Mtn Home AFB, 1978-81)
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To: BurbankKarl
But when gasoline reached $4 a gallon, will it make more sense?

No, because the energy input in preparing the land, sowing the seed, nurturing the crop, harvesting it, processing it into ethanol will be more expensive, driving the cost of ethanol similarly higher.

The only way consumers will ever buy into ethanol is if they don't realize they are getting substantially less energy (i.e. milage) and that they are paying far more thn the pump price in federal subsidies.

The desire for energy independence makes us all want to find a way to cut loose from foreign oil, but ethanol is a singularly poor way of accomplishing that goal.

We'd be better advised to let our own energy producers find and develop domestic oil sources with less hostility and blame.

12 posted on 07/07/2006 11:28:32 AM PDT by John Valentine
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To: ozzymandus

I don't know for sure, but I believe that diesel has more.


13 posted on 07/07/2006 11:29:01 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
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To: xzins; BurbankKarl
Not only that, putting ethanol into gasoline actually increases the cost of the gasoline since ethanol is more expensive. It's expense comes from the fact that it is very expensive to produce, and the resulting product from original source is far less than gasoline from crude. No, ethanol is not the answer. Hydrogen is probably a far better, albeit more expensive, solution. And, yes, I am aware that as the new fuels become more prevalent the costs of production will decrease.
14 posted on 07/07/2006 11:30:16 AM PDT by phoenix0468 (http://www.mylocalforum.com -- Go Speak Your Mind.)
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To: xzins

Also of issue here, the continued belief that only CORN ethanol is the solution. Just as the Brazilians use a different source for their ethanol (sugar cane) the US is developing other sources (cellulose) for ethanol.

This will also change the cost picture if it comes to fruition. There are many "waste" cellulose sources that could be turned into production by this process.

I will agree that ethanol may not be the end all, be all as hyped by the media. However, I do believe it has a place in our future and likely a greater place than the current industry mix.


15 posted on 07/07/2006 11:31:28 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: LetsRok
You're getting the 93 octane. If your fuel is 10 percent alcohol, the base gas is probably 89 or 90 octane and the remainder comes from the alcohol.
When 10 percent ethanol gasoline first became popular, the oil company I worked for developed a subgrade, 85 octane straight gas to accomodate the alcohol and not exceed 87 octane at the pump.
16 posted on 07/07/2006 11:31:36 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (BTUs are my Beat.)
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To: xzins; Toddsterpatriot
Just to make things sweeter, the U.S. has erected import tariffs on imported ethanol of more than 50 cents/gallon to defend against lower cost imports of that Brazilian ethanol. This helps to inflate the price of ethanol to the consumers, quite similar to the tariffs erected to protect the US sugar lobby.

Proving once again that it's not about energy independence at all. Instead, it's all about providing benefits to special interest groups at the expense of taxpayers. Ain't protectionism grand?

17 posted on 07/07/2006 11:32:28 AM PDT by Mase
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To: xzins
[...the energy content in a gallon of Ethanol is well known to be about 76,000 Btu/gallon of ethanol. Gasoline by contrast contains about 50 percent more energy at 114,000 Btu/gal. ... As Ethanol is mixed with gasoline, the energy per gallon of the mixed fuel drops, being diluted with the less energetic ethanol. The E85 mixture (85 percent Ethanol) contains 83,260 Btu/gal. Obviously, this is less energy than is in the gasoline itself, and as a result, the mileage will therefore drop.]



This is a red herring argument. We don't care how much energy is contained PER VOLUME if we can just add more to the tank (and we can). What IS important is the cost/benefit PER UNIT OF ENERGY of our fuel.

Ethanol is not the magic solution that some people are hyping it to be, but it does have numerous advantages in many applications (such as in powering our personal transportation) where it's better to have a renewable fuel which burns cleanly and takes CO2 out of the air as it's being produced to balance the CO2 emitted when burned. This it certainly does better than fossil fuels

Beware of partisan hacks engaging in zealous propaganda FOR or AGAINST particular energy sources.
18 posted on 07/07/2006 11:33:21 AM PDT by spinestein (Follow "The Bronze Rule")
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To: taxcontrol

Excellent post.

Ethanol should be part of the ultimate independence solution. Research should continue.

We should think in terms of "mix."

Thanks.


19 posted on 07/07/2006 11:34:59 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
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To: John Valentine

Or put the cost of developing new fuels, or more efficient automobiles on the auto industry. I realize this is a bold statement, but they would be the ones to benefit from any new technologies in the market. Why should the United States government be burdened with the cost of research and development that will eventually be used around the world? The auto industry, regardless of financial news, is flush with capital and could easily make new tech or much higher efficiencies happen. The U.S. government should put penalties on automakers that do not meet certain benchmnarks. For example, every vehicle must acheive at least 30 mpg by 2010, an alternate energy source must be available on all cars, either hybrid or compete, by 2015. Hydrogen vehicles should be considered very heavily in this equation. The fact is that production of Hydrogen will become more efficient and less expensive as more cars add it as a fuel source.


20 posted on 07/07/2006 11:36:38 AM PDT by phoenix0468 (http://www.mylocalforum.com -- Go Speak Your Mind.)
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To: xzins

I've read several articles on ethenol lately and they all miss the most important point - It's a waste of perfectly good alcohol.


21 posted on 07/07/2006 11:39:50 AM PDT by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: Mase


Kittymonky says hybrids are the way to go!!
22 posted on 07/07/2006 11:41:02 AM PDT by phoenix0468 (http://www.mylocalforum.com -- Go Speak Your Mind.)
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To: taxcontrol

Are you talking about bio-Butanol? I read that the oil companies are all investing in "waste" ethanol, meaning grass clippings, used corn stalks, then fed to microorganisms to create the fuel.

There was an article in the Wall Street Journal about it, and how it came out of technology from the Vietnam war?


23 posted on 07/07/2006 11:41:21 AM PDT by BurbankKarl
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To: phoenix0468

Anyone who thinks that adding alcohol to gasoline will decrease the price of energy hasn't priced a bottle of whiskey lately.


24 posted on 07/07/2006 11:42:19 AM PDT by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: xzins
This is a no-sh!tter. Before switching to ethanol blends I was getting up to 37MPG Hwy and 30MPG around town. Now you can't nuy anything but ethanol blends around here and I am lucky to get 33 Hwy and 25 around town.

My vehicles are scrupulously maintained, tires inflated properly and oil and filters changed regularly.

I have toned my driving down quite considerably too. I don't ever exceed the posted limit anymore, always travel on the right, no jackrabbit starts, or quick stops. I'm doing the best that I can, but the energy level in the fuel is just not there.

25 posted on 07/07/2006 11:47:28 AM PDT by P8riot ("You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone)
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To: P8riot

Good example. Thanks.


26 posted on 07/07/2006 11:49:51 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
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To: phoenix0468; taxcontrol; xzins; Yo-Yo
[...as the new fuels become more prevalent the costs of production will decrease.]



This is very true. If and when ethanol production for fuel becomes more widespread, it's guaranteed that the cost will come down substantially to the point where it's less expensive per energy unit output than gasoline or diesel.

Also, engines which are optimized for alcohol can run at higher compression ratios because of the higher octane rating, and so can produce more power (about 40% more) than a relative BTU comparison would suggest.

If we were to produce alcohol in the same large quantities that refined gasoline is produced, it would be very competitive and would likely be the preferred choice for many consumers.
27 posted on 07/07/2006 11:51:56 AM PDT by spinestein (Follow "The Bronze Rule")
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To: Mase
Instead, it's all about providing benefits to special interest groups at the expense of taxpayers.

But Willie Green said tariffs and subsidies guaranteed a larger supply at lower prices. He couldn't have been wrong, could he?

28 posted on 07/07/2006 11:53:47 AM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: taxcontrol
The only real place it has is as a replacement for gasoline. I truly do not believe the cost of fuel will decrease with any new fuel. I wish I were wrong, and I wish we could have alternatives now, but the fact is that gasoline and diesel remain the most efficient, effective fuel sources available for combustion engines.

I believe that new energy sources are the way to go. I.E. electric motors which can be regenerated by the sun, or even by the vehicles own movement with turbines that can resupply batteries, as well as energy trapped from braking.
29 posted on 07/07/2006 11:53:49 AM PDT by phoenix0468 (http://www.mylocalforum.com -- Go Speak Your Mind.)
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To: xzins

Other problems with ethanol:
It can't be transported over pipelines and must be carried in tanker trucks.
It corrodes and damages parts inside engines built for gasoline.


30 posted on 07/07/2006 11:54:58 AM PDT by Colinsky
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To: John Valentine

" The desire for energy independence makes us all want to find a way to cut loose from foreign oil, but ethanol is a singularly poor way of accomplishing that goal.

We'd be better advised to let our own energy producers find and develop domestic oil sources with less hostility and blame."


Very well stated.


The real future for reducing foreign oil consumption is the use of small Diesel engines combined with conservation and development of supplies here at home.

Everyone thinks that diesels are so dirty. They are not. I worked for years developing Diesel engine control systems and I can assure you that they are orders of magnitude cleaner than they used to be.

When you look at emissions in terms of total miles traveled vs pollutants per gallon of fuel consumed it looks a lot better.

But the EPA and CARB find Diesels a politically unacceptable solution.

Based on the article's BTU calculations I suspect that ethanol blends such as E85 are no less polluting than regular gasoline.

These are not matters that most folks have the knowledge to understand.

Politics and emotion rule the day.


31 posted on 07/07/2006 11:56:23 AM PDT by EEDUDE (Don't measure your wealth in dollars and cents.)
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To: phoenix0468
It's expense comes from the fact that it is very expensive to produce, and the resulting product from original source is far less than gasoline from crude.

This could also describe hydrogen.

32 posted on 07/07/2006 11:58:52 AM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are protectionists so bad at math?)
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To: EEDUDE
The real future for reducing foreign oil consumption is the use of small Diesel engines combined with conservation and development of supplies here at home.

I'm gonna start driving my New Holland the 12 miles each way into work.

33 posted on 07/07/2006 11:59:01 AM PDT by P8riot ("You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone)
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To: xzins

This article completely ignores the fact that ethanol vastly increases your odds of getting laid.


34 posted on 07/07/2006 12:05:25 PM PDT by Lekker 1 (("Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau" - I. Fisher, Yale Econ Prof, 1929))
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To: xzins
First and Foremost, Ethanol is a Corn state PORK PRODUCT, NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS.

Secondly, it is heralded for its decreasing of emissions. It however creates more pollution during its creation than it can ever hope to reduce.

Biodiesel, ethanol, and hybrids are NOT the answer.

hydrogen, could be the answer. I believe its the second or third most abundant element on earth. Its just a matter of safety and efficiency in converting water to hydrogen.
35 posted on 07/07/2006 12:06:27 PM PDT by xpertskir
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To: EEDUDE

I share your same beliefs about the pollutant levels. My gut tells me pure gasoline emissions post-processed with a working catalytic converter can be as "clean" as ethanol emissions. I just can't point to any authoritative studies on the matter, and even if I could, I doubt I could fully comprehend the results since I've never studied organic chemistry.


36 posted on 07/07/2006 12:07:03 PM PDT by nhoward14
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To: xzins
Michael R. Fox, Ph.D., is the energy and science writer for Hawaii Reporter. He has nearly 40 years experience in the energy field. He has also taught chemistry and energy at the University level. His interest in the communications of science has led to several communications awards, hundreds of speeches, and many appearances on television and talk shows.

Fox is right. What's the joke? That it takes 1.29 gallons of fossil fuel to produce one gallon of ethanol? Farm equipment fuels, fertilizers etc, don't come from the air... I wish we could hold the delusions dems hold... it would be soooo much easier.

37 posted on 07/07/2006 12:07:17 PM PDT by GOPJ (In the future when the war goes badly - Keller (NYT) will be arrested for treason, and executed.)
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To: xzins
Independence is not a rational argument to halt or alter trade.

Traditional economic theory states that any need for independence can be fulfilled through stockpiling instead of paying higher prices.

Hence strategic oil reserves.
38 posted on 07/07/2006 12:08:18 PM PDT by xpertskir
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To: GOPJ

It also takes 3 Btus of fossil fuel to generate 1 Btu of electricity. I guess electricity will never catch on either.


39 posted on 07/07/2006 12:11:12 PM PDT by Lekker 1 (("Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau" - I. Fisher, Yale Econ Prof, 1929))
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To: Lekker 1
The real solution to the problem:


40 posted on 07/07/2006 12:14:10 PM PDT by P8riot ("You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone)
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To: xzins

some numbers.

yield per bushel of corn is 2.6 gallons of ethanol.
commodity corn costs $2.50 per bushel.
here is the latest spot price.

$3.35 per gallon
http://ethanolmarket.aghost.net/

price has skyrocketed, just when
Congress forces me to buy the stuff

this does not make friends

those people who are currently in the ethanol business
are receiving a unjust windfall, from changes in the
2005 Energy policy act. Farmers are not being helped,
corn prices are not changing.

The people who did this, are going to pay in November.
Hopefully, we get some type of gridlocked , do-nothing
Congress.

I live in an ethanol-gas area, is there any way to know
if a particular gas station sells 5.7% ethanol or
10% ethanol in gas?

if you want to see something ugly, look at this map
of how many different federal mandates there
are for gasoline formula. On top of this
are federal mandates for seasonal changes, and
industry's decision for 87 and 93 octane.
warning, 2.8 meg .pdf file.
this does not make friends

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/Files/US%20Gasoline%20Map%20100102.pdf


41 posted on 07/07/2006 12:17:51 PM PDT by greasepaint
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To: LetsRok
Octane, or more properly ''octane rating'', is an inverse measurement of the resistance of a given substance to combustion. Thus, a higher octane rating translates to ''burns more readily''.

Ethanol's octane rating is 105-110 (iirc). So, gasoline (hexane-heptane) blended with ethanol will by definition have a higher octane rating than that same gasoline without the blending. You're getting your 93, don't worry about it.

You're also getting moderately worse MPG. 10% ethanol is bad enough, but E85 has to be the biggest joke of a fuel in modern history.

Well, except for hydrogen.

42 posted on 07/07/2006 12:19:04 PM PDT by SAJ (r)
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To: spinestein
This is a red herring argument.

You really need to clarify your assertion that energy per volume is a red herring argument since we purchase our fuel by volume.

In the mean time, I wonder if we haven't missed the point of reducing our dependence on foreign oil. How does a nation reduce its dependence on foreign oil? One way would be to discover an alternative energy source to foreign or domestic oil. That holds the promise of being feasible into the future. Another way to reduce our dependence on foreign oil would be to use our domestic oil. That would reduce dependence on foreign oil barrel for barrel. Yet another way would be a compromise, substitute an alternative energy source for part of the foreign oil required by the refinery to produce gasoline for the internal combustion and diesel engines.

However, if the point is to reduce our dependence on foreign oil without an increase in cost then none of these are practical. At this time, one gallon of diesel fuel can move forty tons at a fuel cost of $3.00. What existing, or potential future, source of energy can equal this efficiency?

There is much I do not know about the feasibility of ethanol. The more I learn the more it seems to provide a political solution rather than a scientific solution. The questions are simple questions but correct answers seem elusive. How much energy is required to produce ethanol? Recall that ethanol is just another name for alcohol and alcohol can be made from many things. Does alcohol produced from sugar cane or beets provide lower cost or higher energy than alcohol from grain?

Answers to these questions are plentiful but separating the wheat from the chaff is difficult for the layman. One thing seems obvious, reducing dependence on foreign oil at a lower cost than foreign oil is someone’s pipe dream.

43 posted on 07/07/2006 12:20:24 PM PDT by MosesKnows
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To: phoenix0468

How is ethanol more expensive to produce? Every hillbilly I know from my neck of the woods can make white lightning pretty cheap.


44 posted on 07/07/2006 12:20:33 PM PDT by vmivol00
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To: xzins

Pinging for later ammo against neo-communist global warming idiots


45 posted on 07/07/2006 12:20:58 PM PDT by RainMan
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To: xzins
Ethanol from corn will likely never be an economically alternative to gasoline.

That's why we have been working on a process to break down cellulose into fermentable sugars with which to make ethanol.

If we have that technology we can use more of the corn plant to make ethanol. We can also use other crops like saw grass which require much less irrigation and grow more densely so it take sup less farm land to grow.

Estimates are that it's going to take another 3 years before the technology becomes viable, and close to a decade before it could create enough ethanol to significantly supplement our gasoline needs.

It's this new technology that is getting a wide range of investors interested. However, the current push to use more corn for ethanol is to provide enough that people can get enough fuel that they can make use of flex fuel vehicles if they start buying them now.

Another point is that while ethanol has less energy per gallon, ethanol allows for engines to work a higher compression rations and the more of the energy in the fuel gets converted into useful energy by the engine.

The technology isn't ready yet, but it's progressing well, and it does appear to be a viable option that could provide upwards of 20% of our fuel needs in a decade or so.

It's not a magical solution that will replace gasoline, but replacing 20% of our gasoline needs is very significant.

46 posted on 07/07/2006 12:23:55 PM PDT by untrained skeptic
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To: phoenix0468
"Or put the cost of developing new fuels, or more efficient automobiles on the auto industry. I realize this is a bold statement, but they would be the ones to benefit from any new technologies in the market. Why should the United States government be burdened with the cost of research and development that will eventually be used around the world? The auto industry, regardless of financial news, is flush with capital and could easily make new tech or much higher efficiencies happen. The U.S. government should put penalties on automakers that do not meet certain benchmarks. For example, every vehicle must achieve at least 30 mpg by 2010, an alternate energy source must be available on all cars, either hybrid or compete, by 2015. Hydrogen vehicles should be considered very heavily in this equation. The fact is that production of Hydrogen will become more efficient and less expensive as more cars add it as a fuel source."


OMG> I cannot believe that you want to penalize auto manufacturers. That is patently SOCIALIST. When the price of gas is high enough people will shop for cars that are more efficient, when people shop for cars that are more efficient the manufacturers will provide in typical supply/demand fashion. do some ECON research PLEASE>
47 posted on 07/07/2006 12:24:51 PM PDT by xpertskir
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To: xzins

Bookmark


48 posted on 07/07/2006 12:25:40 PM PDT by Squeako (ACLU: "Only Christians, Boy Scouts and War Memorials are too vile to defend.")
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To: xzins
Therefore, a $3 gallon of gasoline has the same energy as a $4+ gallon of ethanol.

I think what you meant to say was that a $3 gallon of gasoline has the same energy as a $4+ gallon-and-a-half of ethanol. (gasoline has about 50% more Btu/volume)

49 posted on 07/07/2006 12:26:18 PM PDT by Zeppelin (You've been Zarqed !)
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To: mbynack
Anyone who thinks that adding alcohol to gasoline will decrease the price of energy hasn't priced a bottle of whiskey lately.

I just did a quick calculation on the cost of a gallon of Jack Daniels Black here on the edge of the earth and it came to $100.43/gal.

50 posted on 07/07/2006 12:26:26 PM PDT by ol' hoghead (*)
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