McGuinness rubbishes media 'British spy' claims

Ireland Online ^ | 30/05/2006 - 12:28:01 | not stated

[irish_links]

"....The reason is that the people doing the voting under those proposals do not form a unitary entity, suitable for such voting...."

As I understand it, the Good Friday Accords established a framework for effective dual citizenship for persons living in Ulster as well as shared governmental oversight over the affairs of Ulster by the governments of the U.K. and the RoI. This seems like the acknowledgment of an unitary entity to me. Your assertion that no unity exists appears as no more than an evasion of the basic power of my position: that the status of Ulster is a political decision rightly determined by all franchised persons living in Eire.

For those of us who do not accept the legitimacy of the original absorption of the Eire into England or the later partition of Eire by the U.K., even this formality is unnecessary. Ireland is one nation by way of history, language, culture and tradition, as well as current de facto political agreement.

For your buddy, I hereby make a equivocating denunciation of the IRA. I denounce the Provisional IRA for its conduct of terrorist activities against civilians; destruction of private property; its criminal activities, organized and anarchic; its violent intimidation of all individuals no matter their ethnicity or political belief; its interference in the politics of third party nations and association with even more despicable terrorist groups internationally; and it noxious neo-Stalinist ideology and pernicious effect on Irish political life generally. I do not denounce the legacy IRA for its heroic service in 1916 and subsequent struggle against colonialism and partition. Nor do I denounce the provos for defending oppressed communities otherwise defenseless against sectarian violence and military intimidation by foreign armies, brown shirts and paras. Full stop.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

For your buddy...

Very nice.

Nor do I denounce the provos for defending oppressed communities otherwise defenseless against sectarian violence and military intimidation by foreign armies, brown shirts and paras. Full stop

So you are defending for the IRA attacking British soldiers who were protecting Catholic areas from terrorist attacks?

I want to eradicate both the IRA and the Loyalist terrorist groups.

BTW, my tagline remains.

[slane]

Ireland is one nation by way of history, language, culture and tradition, as well as current de facto political agreement.

No it isn't. Northern Ireland has a completely different culture and tradition from the rest of Ireland. Eamonn Collins, an IRA terrorist, stated that he felt far more at home in Edinburgh than in Dublin. Nor is Ireland one nation based on the Good Friday Accords. Quite the opposite in fact - the Republic of Ireland has renounced its territorial claim to Northern Ireland.

And in regards to voting, the question of Northern Ireland's status has been settled by democratic vote. The Dail, with a Sinn Fein majority, voted to ratify partition. The people of Northern Ireland voted by referendum to remain part of the UK. And frankly, if there were an all-Ireland vote(which there never will be for reasons already gone over), the results might surprise you. The overwhelming number of people in NI want to remain part of the UK, including a sizeable number of Catholics, and most people in the Republic feel little or no attachment to NI, view its inhabitants as a pack of nutters, and are happy to let British taxpayers foot the bill for policing NI. The people there who don't get along now aren't going to get along any better simply because the border disappears.

[jla]

I dunno what Andrea Corr has to do with Martin McGuinness...

Absolutely nothing...and the reason I'd rather listen to lil' Andrea sing, pretty Sharon fiddlin', and sweet Caroline drummin' than read yet another episode in the centuries old strife of norn iron.

The way I see it, if you really want those six counties then raise an army and take them. If not, which seems to be the consensus in the ROI, then why make events of your northern neighbors a predominate focus of your lives?

...besides, Mr. McG would look silly singin' Runaway or playing the tin whistle.

[irish_links]

"...Nor is Ireland one nation based on the Good Friday Accords. Quite the opposite in fact - the Republic of Ireland has renounced its territorial claim to Northern Ireland...."

The RoI agreed in good faith to this controversial provision while negotiating for the joint governmental oversight of Ulster with the U.K., as you know. I think it is fair to say that both parties viewed this arrangement as a transitional step toward ultimate unification by democratic process, not as an acknowledgment of the permanent nature of the status quo ante.

"...The Dail, with a Sinn Fein majority, voted to ratify partition..."

The Dail ratified partition under duress. That is, the British government threatened to impose draconian oppression and economic privation upon the Irish if they did not accept this unholy bargain, as well as agreeing to forgo the notion of an Irish republic and accept the indefinite sovereignty of the crown over an "Irish Free State." If my math is correct, it took Dev another fourteen years to correct this mistake. Contracts agreed upon under duress and threat of violence are not valid in law, nor in historical circumstance, in my opinion.

"...And frankly, if there were an all-Ireland vote(which there never will be for reasons already gone over), the results might surprise you. The overwhelming number of people in NI want to remain part of the UK, including a sizable number of Catholics, and most people in the Republic feel little or no attachment to NI, view its inhabitants as a pack of nutters, and are happy to let British taxpayers foot the bill for policing NI. The people there who don't get along now aren't going to get along any better simply because the border disappears...."

You may be right. But, I sense that if this were the truth the government of the U.K. would have moved expeditiously to carry out a plebiscite on the issue in conjunction with the RoI and the multilateral organizations to settle the matter. They've had nearly forty years of civil rights demonstrations, guerrilla violence and civil unrest that could largely have been avoided by taking affirmative action in this regard, not to mention all the domestic and international opprobrium.

And, as I wrote earlier, the notion that it is advisable to simply let the wiggers up north fight it out among themselves is fashionable in the RoI, but it is less so here in the States. Perhaps we are sentimental and foolish. Or, perhaps we don't look the other way when we encounter injustice and bigotry. We are used to bearing burdens for just but unpopular causes and receiving nothing but scorn from the bien pensee crowd in return. So be it.

"..The people there who don't get along now aren't going to get along any better simply because the border disappears..."

But the institutional and cultural structures that permit systematic bias against minorities can be dismantled expeditiously. (See RSA). I believe tremendous progress could be made in ending the injustice (and thereby the strife) by expediting the reform of the RUC and ending de facto support of loyalist paramilitary groups by the NIR government. I don't see this happening under the existing circumstances, even eight years (has it been that long?) since the Good Friday Accords were signed.

By the way, I got involved in this imbroglio primarily in defense of Bertie Ahern. Perhaps the Taoiseach is not the free marketeer that we would wish him to be (there isn't much of a constituency for free market/capitalist economic policies in Ireland, is there?), and perhaps his personal life is not perfect (nor are any of ours); but he towers above any other successful politician in Western Europe, by my way of thinking, and you are fortunate to have him. It is my hope that the Irish do not cut off their noses to spite their faces by embracing the failed policies of statist socialism and the soul destroying anti-life, anti-family secularism of the EU. For better or worse, Bertie and FF are the last best defense.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Slane, it's useless talking to him - it's seems he's better informed on Irish affairs than, well, us Irish.

So, I'm going to go on another thread an lecture some Americans about American affairs!! ;)

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Ah, look - I was just joking, you can post pics of The Corrs all you like, I don't care. :)

If not, which seems to be the consensus in the ROI, then why make events of your northern neighbors a predominate focus of your lives?

Because IRA are also enemies of the Republic of Ireland (as ironic as it sounds) - they (including their front organisation) are the biggest threat to Irish democracy at this present time. And there still is the danger of a Loyalist bombing in the south.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

It is my hope that the Irish do not cut off their noses to spite their faces by embracing the failed policies of statist socialism and the soul destroying anti-life, anti-family secularism of the EU. For better or worse, Bertie and FF are the last best defense.

What the Hell are you talking about, Bertiebot??? Bertie Ahern rammed the Nice Treaty down the throats of the Irish Electorate (I know, I was there....).

[irish_links]

"...Bertie Ahern rammed the Nice Treaty down the throats of the Irish Electorate (I know, I was there....)..."

Slane, you seem to be a reasonable chap. Perhaps you can reason with your good friend.

Perhaps you will remind him that Fianna Fail was a lukewarm supporter of Nice at best, and advocated passage principally, if not solely, on the basis of the need to have a Yes vote to maintain the flow of investment capital and agricultural subsidies to the RoI from the EU. If my memory serves me (I admit to not having followed this too closely), Ahern and FF negotiated some changes to the treaty to make it more palatable to Irish voters.

Be that as it may. It is unquestionable that Fine Gael and Labor were wildly enthusiastic about the treaty. Why? Because they viewed it as a way to undermine free market/low tax policies in the RoI and to weaken the moral underpinning of Irish law as regards the sanctity of life, the primacy of the family, and the definition of marriage and any other aspect of Irish life and culture that does not conform to the politically correct notions of the secularists in the Hague. One can pound one's spoon on the high chair tray and scream about "Bertiebots' all you want, but a vote against FF is a vote for FG/Labor. Pick your poison, my friends.

[irish_links]

"...Bertie Ahern rammed the Nice Treaty down the throats of the Irish Electorate (I know, I was there....)..."

Slane, you seem to be a reasonable chap. Perhaps you can reason with your good friend.

Perhaps you will remind him that Fianna Fail was a lukewarm supporter of Nice at best, and advocated passage principally, if not solely, on the basis of the need to have a Yes vote to maintain the flow of investment capital and agricultural subsidies to the RoI from the EU. If my memory serves me (I admit to not having followed this too closely), Ahern and FF negotiated some changes to the treaty to make it more palatable to Irish voters.

Be that as it may. It is unquestionable that Fine Gael and Labor were wildly enthusiastic about the treaty. Why? Because they viewed it as a way to undermine free market/low tax policies in the RoI and to weaken the moral underpinning of Irish law as regards the sanctity of life, the primacy of the family, and the definition of marriage and any other aspect of Irish life and culture that does not conform to the politically correct notions of the secularists in the Hague. One can pound one's spoon on the high chair tray and scream about "Bertiebots' all you want, but a vote against FF is a vote for FG/Labor. Pick your poison, my friends.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

I must be invisible. You insult me on this thread and you can't take it back?? I only reacted badly to you because you verbally attacked me unprovoked!!!!

Why did Bertie The Traitor ignore the will of the people by forcing another referendum down our throats??

but a vote against FF is a vote for FG/Labor

What's the alternative??

A vote for FF is a vote for SF/IRA!!! I think I'd rather anything else!!

[isom35]

well, maybe he thinks he destroyed all the evidence.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

He hid all the documents in a bomb...

[Irish_Thatcherite]

BTW, 'Labor' is spelled 'Labour' over here.

[irish_links]

"...BTW, 'Labor' is spelled 'Labour' over here..."

Thanks for the correction. I knew you could teach me something.

"...I think I'd rather anything else!!..."

Suit yourself. You'll be toiling under the boot of the Lefties and pederasts of "Labour" soon enough; best accept your choice and get used to it now. You know what they say about pending execution concentrating the mind and all that.

Regards

Irish_links

[Irish_Thatcherite]

It's not Labour I support - it's Fine Gael. Fine Gael is moving to the right, and Enda Kenny will do more against the SF/IRA traitors than that appeasenik Bertie would ever do.

To be honest - I would like a Fine Gael/PD coalition, though the polls at present don't support that, who knows though...

[irish_links]

Time will tell. Hope things work out for the best.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Voting is a moral dilemma for conservatives over here at best.

All the best. :)

[slane]

A few points:

The Dail ratified partition under duress

Partition was a fait accompli long before Lloyd George threatened to resume the war if the treaty were not signed, and it was a fait accompli as a direct result of Sinn Fein's choosing to abstain from voting in Westminster and leaving the unionists as the biggest Irish voting bloc in parliament, which led to the passage of the 1920 Act that codified partition. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! Partition was a political compromise that the Irish government accepted in order to defuse the potential nightmare of dealing with the six counties that formed NI as much as for any other reason.

But the institutional and cultural structures that permit systematic bias against minorities can be dismantled expeditiously.

You're a bit behind the times and need to get off the 'oppression and injustice' line if you want to be taken seriously when discussing current affairs in NI. Basically, its already happened. Martin McGuinness is the Minister of Education after all! The RUC has been morphed into the PNSI and Catholic enlistment is way up, simply because Catholics don't need to worry about being nutted by the IRA(which is the main reason very few Catholics joined before). My point about the border not making any difference is that the small minority of nutters who mess things up for everyone else are going to keep fighting amongst themselves regardless of which flag is flying over Donegall Square, and that kind of tit-for-tat violence is not something that a change of government will eradicate. It is not caused by 'Injustice' but by the same type of tribal animus that causes problems in the rest of the world. Many working-class Catholics and Protestants grow up in insular communities, attend school with their own 'tribe' exclusively, and may not get to know anyone from the other tribe until they are adults and their attitudes are set. The best way to end this self-Balkanisation is to have the children from both traditions attend school together - but that will never happen, since that would require a complete overhaul of the educational system. Very few parents want their children to attend a religion-neutral school as is common in the US, so the problem will go on. Also, there is no 'de facto collusion' of the NI govt. with loyalist terrorists. The loyalist paramilitaries have been neutered and reduced to turf wars amongt themselves and running protection rackets in their own communities. They were far easier to deal with than the republican groups because they never got any outside funding or help from abroad.

[slane]

So, I'm going to go on another thread an lecture some Americans about American affairs!!

Good on ya I_T - hope you set them straight!:)

BTW as per your remark about loyalists bombing the South, they would probably just score an 'own goal' anyway so it might be best to let them have a go! It would be a cheap and effective way to get rid of a few...Seriously, I think there's no fear of that happening unless NI is forced into unification, which would certainly set the crazies off.

Hope you're keeping well.. I have no time at the moment which is why my posting is quite sporadic but I always appreciate the pings. We got a bit off topic on this thread but just imagine the crack if oul Martin DID turn out to be a British agent!