A New Twist for the Moonshiner: Ethanol

AP via Fox News ^ | 05/15/2006 | By Staff

[oxcart]

TULLAHOMA, Tenn. — The still — standard equipment of any moonshiner — has a shot at becoming the must-have accessory of penny-pinching motorists.

An upstart Tennessee business is marketing stills that can be set up as private distilleries making ethanol — 190 proof grain alcohol — out of fermented starchy crops such as corn, apples or sugar cane. The company claims the still's output can reduce fuel costs by nearly a third from the pump price of gasoline.

[oxcart]

The south returning to it's NASCAR roots.

[cinives]

I'm planting apple trees this year...

[SF Republican]

Had some great 'shine from Arkansas a few years back; the sheriff that brewed it used it to run the tractors; the stuff would take your breath away and chrome off of bumper.

[JamesP81]

I think it's humorous when the pols are on TV and they start talking about ethanol plants like they're some kind of a high-tech highly-sophisticated manufacturing apparatus.

They aren't. They're moonshine stills. Big ones. I've known and been related to some people that could teach these guys how to do it right.

[Colonel Kangaroo]

Tullahoma is not too far from the Jack Daniels site. Maybe more of that stuff can end up in Americans' gas tanks instead of their brain cells.

[mysterio]

I have respect for the rugged individualism of moonshiners. And now, they're helping us achieve energy independence, too! But they better not denature that stuff. LOL

[70times7]

It's car fuel... no it's a beverage... no it's both!

(it's a desert topping and a floor polish!)

[Politically Correct]

I have respect for the rugged individualism of moonshiners. And now, they're helping us achieve energy independence, too! But they better not denature that stuff. LOL

If you don't denature it (and in the process remove the remaining water) you're probably breaking some liqueur law.

[Zavien Doombringer]

LOL, that way, if you get stranded, you can always have a drink while you wait for the tow.

[oxcart]

Now who would do a thing like that? /sarc

[Dark Skies]

Here's the link (click on the pic)...

[ansel12]

We need to form NORAL.

National organization for reform of alcohol laws.

We should allow home stills for medicinal purposes.

Alcohol has an ancient tradition in both official, and home medical treatments.

[HEY4QDEMS]

Cool, I can drill a hole through the floor and run a straw from the tank to the drivers seat.

[Havok]

I cant wait to see teenagers in the future siphoning ethanol from cars to get drunk on.

[MainFrame65]

It's not as simple as just distillation. Ethanol forms a eutectic mixture with water at about 96%/4%, and cannot be distilled to a greater purity. That amount of water, when mixed with gasoline, can cause serious problems in IC engines. The distillate must be chemically treated to remove the remainder of the water before it can be used for fuel in an engine that is not specifically built for the task.

Also, An engine built to operate most efficiently with ethanol would need a higher compression ratio than one built for gasoline. This is determined in the engine design and not alterable during operation, so any engine that uses a variable mixture of the two is not optimized.

[fredhead]

"The American Petroleum Institute, which represents the oil industry, is all for putting ethanol into gasoline but questions the wisdom of doing it yourself."

Of course they do!!!!! That would cut into the profits!!!!

[bicyclerepair]

The cost of producing vegetable based fuel is so much higher than buying gas. We're not even close to the break even point yet.

[oxcart]

Thanks for the link!

[Sender]

This here's race gas, Jed.

[oxcart]

LOL, I new a drunk once and he would fill his windshield wiper reservoir with alcohol, run the sprayer lines to the drivers compartment and...he died years ago.

[USFRIENDINVICTORIA]

The secret is in the still manufacturer's site (link in post # 11):

" but if it is fuel you are after, you want to burn scrap wood, or anything you can get cheap or free as a fuel source, because you have to minimise your costs and also be adaptable."

In a sense, alcohol production is a roundabout method for converting hog fuel into transportation fuel. I understand that commercial operations burn coal to do the evaporation -- in effect a way of using coal for automobile fuel.

[B Knotts]

Well, it's still illegal to distill alcohol at home, something that should have been legalized long ago.

It is, however, perfectly legal to brew your own biodiesel.

[heldmyw]

You know... the whole trick to distillation is that alcohol boils (turns to vapor) at around 187 degrees (F) and water at 212 (F)... Not a spectacular temp, really.

A small scale distiller, operating on, say, the waste heat from your hot water heater, furnace or even the air conditioner (yes, Skippy, part of it gets quite hot), could conceivably produce enough fuel additive to make a real difference in one's personal budget...

It does cut out oil company profits though. Expect it to remain illegal.

[Al Gator]

The act of separating alcohol from water is illegal.

If you put a can of beer in the freezer and perform a process known as "jacking", you have broken the law.

One other thing, using any kind of open flame or spark producing switching in an area that a distillery is functioning, is almost an act of suicide.

One pinhole leak in your condenser, if you are only on the second step, will end your career with a really big bang.

Like uncle Carl once said, "it ain't a thing you go messin with".

[oxcart]

Compressed Natural Gas went this same way. There was a time when I lived in Oklahoma, ONG, the gas co there, had a plan to allow customers to install fueling stations run off their home natural gas lines to fuel CNG converted cars and trucks. When the demorats demanded taxing this proposition ONG dropped the idea.

[Biblebelter]

Patrick Kennedy could recycle the Rapist in Chief. I siphoned but I didn't imbibe.

[SE Mom]

Thanks for the link- informative site.

If Brazil can become energy INDEPENDENT...we certainly can and must.

http://www.truthabouttrade.org/article.asp?id=5029

[TKDietz]

"I cant wait to see teenagers in the future siphoning ethanol from cars to get drunk on."

Ethanol producers are required by law to put poison in the ethanol so that it isn't fit for human consumption. In most cases it is also mixed with gasoline. In Brazil they do sell cars that will burn 100% ethanol, 100% gasoline, or any combination of the two (over 70% of all new cars sold in Brazil are like this and most are manufactured in the U.S.). Here though most cars sold to burn more than the 20% to 25% ethanol all new cars can handle are still not made to run on pure ethanol. They burn E85 (85% ethanol). E85 is sold with somewhat higher than 15% gasoline in the winter though to help with cold starting engines. I doubt many people would want to drink something that is 15% gasoline, pure ethanol with poison it, or even pure ethanol with no poison in it coming out of a gas tank.

[shield]

I heard the big oil guys way back when....got stills outlawed by the feds cause they wanted only to have gasoline/oil to fuel peoples cars stopping alcohol from being the fuel. Of course, the reason for stopping stills was actually a big ole' lie.

[TKDietz]

"The distillate must be chemically treated to remove the remainder of the water before it can be used for fuel in an engine that is not specifically built for the task."

Ethanol does not have to be chemically treated to remove excess water. Pure ethanol can be had simply by filtering through charcoal. Most people with home stills at least use molecular sieves made from zeolites to extract the water. These are generally little balls made from "microporous crystalline solids with well-defined structures." They soak up water but not ethanol, and can be dried and reused over and over again. The company that was the subject of this article well sell you zeolite pellets for $4.75 a pound with free shipping. There are also ways to dehydrate the ethanol using dried corn or other biomass to extract the water, different low pressure distilling methods, and other means that do not necessarily require the use of toxic chemicals.

"Also, An engine built to operate most efficiently with ethanol would need a higher compression ratio than one built for gasoline. This is determined in the engine design and not alterable during operation, so any engine that uses a variable mixture of the two is not optimized."

I've read that there are some turbo-charged fuel injected engines that run more efficiently on ethanol than gasoline. Ethanol normally produces something like 30% less energy than gasoline, but there are already cars with engines capable of doing better than that on or roadways, and there are modification people can make to existing engines that will allow them to use more than the 20% or 25% or so ethanol their engines can already handle and modifications that will help with fuel efficiency. And if gas prices remain high as they are expected to do, the lower efficiency of ethanol in standard engines won't matter that much to consumers because even if they have to burn more ethanol to get where they are going, they'll still spend less because ethanol is considerably cheaper than gasoline at the moment. If gas prices go much higher, I'm buying a still. I'd rather not fund the crazy Arabs with my fuel purchases anyway.

[70times7]

Sir, your gas cap is missing - I'm arresting you for an open container violation...

[hdstmf]

Great American ingenuity strikes again!

[TKDietz]

"I understand that commercial operations burn coal to do the evaporation -- in effect a way of using coal for automobile fuel."

In Brazil they burn their sugar cane stalks for the distillation process and use ethanol to produce the electricity to run their ethanol plants. They end up selling excess electricity to their power companies and still make a nice profit on the ethanol.

[hdstmf]

You can burn it in your car or your tummy.

[hdstmf]

Also, An engine built to operate most efficiently with ethanol would need a higher compression ratio than one built for gasoline. This is determined in the engine design and not alterable during operation, so any engine that uses a variable mixture of the two is not optimized.

There always has to be a party-pooper.

[TKDietz]

"Well, it's still illegal to distill alcohol at home, something that should have been legalized long ago."

It is perfectly legal to distill alcohol at your home to use as fuel. You do have to get a permit and you do have to promise to denature (add poison to) your alcohol, but you can run a still legally as long as you are making the alcohol as a fuel and not for human consumption.

[TKDietz]

It is not illegal to distill alcohol for use as fuel. You can do it as long as you get a permit, denature your alcohol, and don't sell it. Farmers are increasingly doing this and I bet we see a lot more individuals and businesses doing it as gasoline process continue to rise. I'm seriously considering doing it myself, both to reduce my dependence on foreign oil and to save a little money, that and I just kind of like the idea of having a still.

[USFRIENDINVICTORIA]

That makes sense. There was a thread a while back about using enzimes to break up the cellulose -- so that entire corn stalks, etc. could be fermented. I wonder how the economics of that process will compare to burning the material for process heat.

I'm generally suspicious of anything that needs a government subsidy to work (beyond the initial R&D and startup phases). If people can make a profit from producing ethanol, then the onus will be on opponents to show why it isn't a good thing.

[TKDietz]

"...as gasoline _process_ continue to rise."

Should have said: "...as gasoline _prices_ continue to rise."

[USFRIENDINVICTORIA]

enzimes = enzymes

[Dinsdale]

any engine that uses a variable mixture of the two is not optimized.

Turbocharger and variable pressure wastegate. Viola variable compression ratios. (Granted those wastegates are'nt cheap, about $500 for my burner, but weeeee it sure makes avgas fun.)

[Labyrinthos]

"The American Petroleum Institute, which represents the oil industry, is all for putting ethanol into gasoline but questions the wisdom of doing it yourself."

The ATF people might also question the wisdom... and legality.

[Old Professer]

Go to the Tennessean.com and you'll find pictures

[TKDietz]

I expect to see production costs go down as new technologies are introduced. Big companies are now getting in on the game and they'll figure out how to reduce costs. I just read that Chevron invested in a big ethanol plant that's being built. I think we'll see ethanol production costs going down while gasoline prices continue to rise.

I don't know just how much the ethanol industry is subsidized, but any need for subsidy should decrease as the price of oil climbs. I don't think we'll ever see really cheap oil prices again. Reserves are depleting and what is left is harder and more costly to get and refine. Also, demand for oil is increasing as countries like China and India become more industrialized and the people their want to live more like we live. The cost of producing ethanol relative to the cost of producing gasoline kept ethanol from being a viable option before. Now production costs for producing ethanol are going down while the cost of oil is rising so ethanol is looking a lot more promising.

In Brazil now from what I understand more than 40% of all fuel burned in passenger vehicles on their roads is ethanol. They no longer have to purchase foreign oil. From what I understand their ethanol industry is not subsidized, but taxes are lower on ethanol and cars capable of running on ethanol. They do have the advantage of having dirt cheap labor and huge amounts of sugar cane (much better than corn for ethanol production). I am confident that good old American ingenuity can level the playing field though.

One thing they have in Brazil that we should have here are cars capable of burning 100% ethanol, 100% gasoline, or any combination of the two. I think most of those cars are actually produced in the U.S., but they are not marketed here. An awful lot of our new cars are capable of burning E85 though. It costs very little extra to build cars that handle E85 and manufacturers get tax breaks for doing it, so apparently an awful lot of the new vehicles on the road will run on E85 (5 or 6 million to date) even though manufacturers weren't making a point of telling people about that. These tax breaks are a subsidy of sorts, but if it ends up reducing our dependence on foreign oil it's worth it. That's a matter of national security. And besides, it keeps some of the money we are giving to the Arabs here at home. I'd rather see American farmers and other American businesses rake in that money rather than some jerk offs who fund terrorists. Even our oil companies benefit to a degree because they get tax breaks for mixing ethanol with gasoline. They could benefit more if like Chevron they would get into producing ethanol.

[TKDietz]

"The ATF people might also question the wisdom... and legality."

It is perfectly legal as long as you have a permit. The permit for small scale production (up to 10,000 gallons per year) is not that hard to get. A lot of people have them.

[USFRIENDINVICTORIA]

While I am "suspicious" of subsidies -- I'm not opposed for them for a well-defined purpose. Given the geopolitics today, energy self sufficiency is probably worth a subsidy.

Anything that helps out rural communities is "a good thing" in my opinion. If large-scale ethanol production helps farming areas, and draws some people from large cities back to the small towns, that will be a huge spin-off benefit.

[Al Gator]

Its not that simple.

First you apply to ATF. They tell you what you can have and what the capacity is.

They tell you they can show up at your place, any hour of the day OR NIGHT and check on you and your equipment, for compliance.

Gets pretty raggedy here, if you don't like the ATF, you have a problem.

Two, its a LOT OF WORK. Making the mash is a ten day ordeal that is time consuming and dirty.

Bakers yeast gives such a low yield, its practically worthless. Higher yield yeasts are expensive. Unless you culture your own, which takes even more time and is more labb intensive.

Try it if you like, but in short order, you will probably let every thing collect dust in the closet and your permit expire because you "just can't find the time".

Have fun though!

Ps. DO NOT GET CAUGHT DISTILLING DRINKABLE ETHANOL.

Bad move.

[TKDietz]

Here's a link to the form you use to apply for a permit: http://www.ethanolstill.com/alcoholpermit.pdf

[Labyrinthos]

I didn't know that. Thanks.

[TKDietz]

"Try it if you like, but in short order, you will probably let every thing collect dust in the closet and your permit expire because you "just can't find the time"."

That's no doubt true. It would end up in the closet with my beer making equipment, my metal detector, and all of the other hobby things I've purchased over the years and used very little before putting them away and forgetting about them. My wife just loves it when I do that. I would not be surprised at all though to see a lot more people getting into this, especially farmers and small business owners who want to save on fuel costs and take advantage of the tax savings. As time goes on I suspect we'll see a lot more ethanol available for purchase as well.