Posted on 05/13/2006 7:23:10 AM PDT by A. Pole
I tatars were PART OF THE MONGOL HORDES you imbecile.
As for the Finns , they have no historic claim to those lands, even if they ended up there after a war. Since you have stated before that Russians shouldn't be granted citizenship in Latvia, and Ukraine I suppose you're all for removing the citizenship of these foreign nationalities and invaders in Russian lands?
30 million were killed by the policies of a Ukranian and a Pole.
Why is it you refuse to acknowledge your brother Ukranians? Is Vlas Chubak not Ukranian enough for you? What about Kruzhchev? Trotsky? These are your brother Ukranians from the historically sovereign Okraina! Why do you not embrace them?
The Tatars were real kind to poland as well btw:
"At his death, Genghis Khan divided the Mongol Empire amongst his four sons. Jochi was the eldest, but he was already dead and his paternity was in doubt, so the westernmost lands trodden by the Mongol hoof, then southern Russia, were divided among his sons, Batu leader of the Blue Horde (East), and Orda, leader of the White Horde (West).
Destruction of Suzdal by the Mongol armies. From the medieval Russian annals
Batu then succeeded in establishing control over Orda's territorial endowment and subjugated the northern littoral of the Black Sea, incorporating the indigenous Turkic peoples into his army. In the late 1230s and early 1240s, he conducted his brilliant campaigns against the Volga Bulgaria and against the successor states to Kievan Rus, bringing their ancient prosperity to an end.
Batu's Blue Horde continued west, raiding Poland and Hungary after the Battles of Legnica and Muhi. In 1241, however, the Great Khan Ogedei died in Mongolia, and Batu turned back from his siege of Vienna to take part in disputing the succession. The Mongol armies would never again travel so far west.
In 1242, Batu established his capital at Sarai, commanding the lower stretch of the Volga River. Shortly before that, the Blue Horde split when Batu's younger brother Shayban left Batu's army to set up his own horde east of the Ural Mountains along the Ob and Irtysh Rivers.
[edit]
Golden Age
The Horde quickly lost its Mongol identity. While the descendants of Batu's original Mongol warriors constituted the upper class of society, most of the Horde's population were Kipchaks, Bulgar Tatars, Kyrghyz, Khwarezmians, and other Turkic peoples."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde
That would be about as stupid as claiming there was no collaboration by Eastern European communists. You can't have it both ways. Eastern Europe and the countries that made up the Soviet Union were a hotbed of leftist/anarchist/socialist/communist radicalism. While the majority of the people in those countries TO INCLUDE RUSSIA did NOT support communism, they nonetheless fell to it because of the coordinated activities of EASTERN EUROPEAN (including Russian) communists. Or are you saying the Russians were so superior that they could waltz in and subdue any nation?
"But when 30 million are killed by by Russian Genocide, there is not a one to be found - only Jews, Poles, Ukrainians, and Georgians"
That's a nice spin on what has been said on here, and you know it. Dishonesty is your game.
What people have been saying EXCEPT you and your polish cohorts is that SOVIETS were guilty for these crimes. They are also saying that SOVIETS were made up of Russians, Ukrainians, Jews, Georgians, etc. It is you who wants to rewrite history as if there was no Ukrainian or Polish, etc, complicity in these crimes. And, at the same time, you try to brush away the facts, established by the Simon Weisenthal Center, that your Ukrainian Nationalist Heros, such as Stepan Bandera, were involved in killing Jews and assisting the Nazis (Supported by the "5th Column" Ukrainians here in the US - perhaps you'd like to tell us about those stateside organizations that were working with the Nazis and Bandera??!?!?!?!)
It is "boring" when you are caught in distorting the historical facts.
Sorry but there was no any communist revolution in Poland. Communist beat whites cause they had significant support of the Russian society.
Maybe you should explain me how all others enslaved nations of the SU, conquered Russia before? (may be even XIII century, some have a long memory)
"Sorry but there was no any communist revolution in Poland. Communist beat whites cause they had significant support of the Russian society."
That's playing with history - there was no communist revolution in Poland - that's correct. BUT, there were plenty of Polish citizens helping the Russian, Jewish, Ukrainian, Latvian, Lithuanian, communists in their anti-government coup in 1917. Two of those Poles set up the ruthless secret police that enslaved, oppressed, and executed millions of innocent people. It's also no small coincidence that after FDR sold out Eastern Europe, the Soviets had plenty of Poles willingly filling communist party leadershipo positions. Complicity - pure and simple.
That is not to say I am absolving Russians of complicity. What I'd like to see is some honesty from the others complicit in the communist crimes. To pretend that your countrymen and other Eastern European ethnicities were not involved and were just victims shows that you are not prepared to correct the mistakes of the past.
As an American I blame all of you former Communist countries, be you Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Czech, whatever, for allowing a system to be put in place and helping it along by cooperating with it. I'd LOVE to see you ALL fess up to the part you played in spreading and supporting the worst ideology that was ever followed. I've heard, read, and seen plenty of Russians talking about how awful it was they were involved in Communism (read: Volkogonov or Yakovlev for example), but all I see from Ukrainians, Poles, East Germans, Latvians, etc., is "we had nothing to do with it, we were the victim" and THAT is just plain dishonest.
Just a facts.
there were plenty of Polish citizens helping the Russian, Jewish, Ukrainian, Latvian, Lithuanian, communists in their anti-government coup in 1917.
The Russian outnumbered them totally. For example those Polish communists were nobodies in Poland, they never had any support from the society. While in Russia they found proper ground for their activity and ideology. The Russians made them important not the Poles.
As an American I blame all of you former Communist countries, be you Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Czech, whatever, for allowing a system to be put in place and helping it along by cooperating with it.
What a joke, we had fought with Nazis and Communists and were defeated. Few traitors don’t change the fact that the Poles in general never supported communist movement. We were also the first to liberate themselves from the occupants. Your statement is simply silly, aimed only to defend Russians by equaling them with the rest of countries occupied by them. Something that they absolutely don’t deserve.
"Maybe you should explain me how all others enslaved nations of the SU, conquered Russia before? (may be even XIII century, some have a long memory)"
And here is where you stumbled upon, quite by accident, the real reason the international Bolsheviks chose Russia instead of Poland or Ukraine to launch their "revolution." As is evident in the archival documents from the Bolshevik party meetings in London and elsewhere, this group of mainly Eastern European and Jewish communists believed they could be more successful if they were able to take over the most dominant country in that region. After they pulled off their anti-government coup in 1917, they were able to send the native Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Latvians, back to their home countries to agitate. In other words, the non-Russians who helped take over Russia were rewarded with leadership positions in their home countries, or in Russia while they waited for their home country to come under Communist rule (thanks to FDR).
Of course, some, like Dzhersinsky and Menzhinsky decided they'd put a Polish mark on Russia by creating the most vile and blood-thirsty secret police the world has ever seen. And of course, they were succeeded by Genrikh Yagoda who by no accident was born in Lodz, Poland.
From the Air Intelligence Agency's website (USAF):
"A central figure in the Cheka and one fundamentally important in its operation was Felix Dzerzhinsky. An off cast from the Polish intelligentsia and upper class, Dzerzhinsky joined the Bolsheviks in 1917 and soon became an important figure in the Cheka. By the early 1920s he directed the Cheka and wielded considerable power and influence. Following a glowing tribute to himself in one of his fire-eating speeches at a plenum of the Central Committee July 20, 1926, Felix Dzerzhinsky collapsed and died of a fatal heart attack. "
And:
"Vyacheslav Rudolfovich Menzhinsky, Dzerzhinsky's chosen successor, was no Stalinist. In fact, like his friend, Menzhinsky was a Bolshevik from the old school and also from Poland. He had joined the Cheka in its early stages of development and later became Dzerzhinsky's first deputy chairman when the OGPU was founded in July 1923."
And then followed by:
Genrikh Yagoda was born in Lodz, Poland, in 1891.
Yagoda joined the Bolsheviks in 1907 and after the successful October Revolution in 1917 he joined the Communist Secret Police (Cheka). He took part in the Red Terror and in 1930 was placed in charge of forced-labour camps.
Yagoda was a close friend of Joseph Stalin and in 1934 he was put in charge of the Peoples Commissariat for Internal Affairs (NKVD). Soon afterwards Yagoda is believed to have been involved in the assassination of Sergy Kirov, a man Stalin believed to be a threat to his power."
Had the OGPU, and then the NKVD not been created (under Polish management, btw) to be such a ruthless and merciless agency, it would have been extremely hard for the Soviets to enslave that region of the world.
And let's not forget Yezhov who, while born in St. Petersburg had Lithuanian and Polish blood and spent his childhood in Poland. Yezhov, as you know, was Yagoda's successor. Next in line was the Mengrel Beria.
So, Lukasz, tell me when the first Russian was named to head the secret police? After all the secret police were the stormtroopers who ensured submission and enslavement. That it was headed up by non-Russians for a good portion of the Soviet Union's existence was no accident. But, I bet you don't want to admit to the real reason Poles were asked to set up and run the secret police.
Archival documents recently declassified show that the Bolsheviks did NOT enjoy popularity or a majority of support. They were victorious because of their disregard for human life and the swift and merciless punishment meted out by the foreign-led OGPU and NKVD (Polish contigent - Dzherzinsky, Mezhinsky, Yagoda, and Yezhov).
"we had fought with Nazis and Communists and were defeated"
Freudian slip, Lukasz?
You seem to have a convenient memory - it was the Russians who controlled the USSR and it was the Russians who allied with the Fascists to start "The Great Patriotic War".
"That is not to say I am absolving Russians of complicity."
how magnanimous of you and what a delusion that the RWC shares - that the Kremlin is not Russian.
"So, Lukasz, tell me when the first Russian was named to head the secret police? "
Romanov, Dont look now but the Kremlin is still in Russia - always was, always will. And their depraved bahavior is not limited to post 1917. The kremlin was occupied by savage despots for hundreds of years prior, too.
IT is no wonder that Russia has always been backward.
I see the founding member of the Phoney Patriot Club (PPC) has weighed in. You show your ignorance of strategic issues and lack of any basic understanding of history unless it's painted in the Ukrainian-nationalist tint that permeates throughout your posts.
The Kremlin is in Russia. Molodets - umnitsa. However, as legitimate Historians and U.S.-trained Sovietologists will tell you - Russia was chosen as the target of the international communist brotherhood (which your countrymen [even though you call yourself an American, your loyalties are with Ukraine] were members of) because they knew that a successful revolution (coup actually) in Russia would give them a powerbase to wittle away at the other Eastern European countries. They also knew that any communist revolution in Eastern Europe before conquering and oppressing Russia would fail because the Tsarist forces would put it down. So, the Bolsheviks (including your Ukrainian countrymen), understood that if they were able to conquer the Tsarist Army (in tatters because of WWI) they would be able to eventually conquer that region of the world. They knew this because they had a cadre that was made up of leading communist/socialist/radicals from the other Eastern European countries. Once they were successful they sent a lot of those radicals back to their homelands where they fomented revolution.
That you and others brush aside the complicity in the Soviet crimes that Ukrainians, Poles, Hungarians, Czechs, etc., played shows that you are really not an "enemy" of communism, but rather a hater of all things Russian. I'm sure that if the communist revolution had first occurred in Ukraine you'd be saying that communism was a good thing until the Russians got a hold of it.
And a question I'd like to see you and Lukacz answer - if your people (Ukrainians and Poles) were so anti-communist and anti-Bolshevik why didn't they assist the Whites in their battle against communism.
What's really sad is a guy who claims to be an American and claims never to have lived abroad (even though he still claims the KGB interrogated him and his parents were in the GULag) wants to "refight" battles in a virtual reality setting that he wouldn't dare fight in reality.
Frankly, and I'll state it once more, as an AMERICAN I find that all of the ethnicities in the former Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact countries owe us an explanation of their complicity in Soviet crimes.
Once again you ignore the infamy of the precommunist Kremlin.
Americans weren't affected by Tsarist Russia so I don't really care too much. There's plenty of horrible things that monarchies around the world inflicted on people. Personally, my country as opposed to your Ukraine, fought a revolution to free ourselves from monarchist oppression and ensured the nation became a freedom loving republic that embraced democratic principles and served as a beacon of light to the oppressed worlds.
The SLAVS (Ukrainians, Russians, etc) killed the Tsar and enslaved the very people they said they were freeing. All done as part of the international communist movement that Ukrainians were a large percentage of.
Not if they are breaching a contract. :)
Do you know where someone could find out the details of the old arrangement?
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