Posted on 03/30/2006 3:17:30 PM PST by paltz
Miracles are so rare as to be statistically insignificant.
Why should this be otherwise?
If miracles were commonplace, they wouldn't be miraculuous.
So, when you or a family member falls ill, call your church or synagogue but don't put your faith in the teachings of hucksters like Benny Hinn or Kenneth Hagin. Get on the phone with your doctor.
whoops... "Defend" in the first sentence should be "offend".
Ahhhh.
Well, I've had people encourage me, profitably, I think, to be more humble when having opinions about God or cheeky statements toward Him and/or about His ways and Wisdom.
I don't mind encouraging others similarly.
But I'm happy to accept exhortations toward more humility. It's a worthy goal.
"It implies a perverse sense of superiority on the part of the one demanding such humility."
I don't recall "demanding" anything--humility or anything else.
I'm sure you find all kinds of things funny which I would not find funny. And? So? And therefore?
BTW, IF you have responded to the main points of my first reply to you, please point that out and show me where. I think I missed any evidence that you did.
"whoops... "Defend" in the first sentence should be "offend"."
Well, if I read your long post correctly, your objection seems to be that "not the right people" were praying.
That's a good, testable hypothesis, theoretically. Of course, it would be impossible to make family-members NOT pray for someone if they were pre-disposed to do so.
But it might be possible to find enough subjects with loving family members who do NOT believe in intercessory prayer (perhaps from some non-Abrahamic religions?)
Anyway, if it were possible to find a sufficient sample, it seems your hypothesis COULD be tested. Perhaps the results would be different.
In this case, however, I believe this study was in response to earlier studies, also using non-loved ones, to pray for people, and those studies tentatively showed a positive effect. This study was bigger and tried to fix some of the perceived flaws in the earlier studies.
In general, do you believe intercessory prayer can have a positive effect on the prayee? And if so, can you think of a way to test that effect so we can measure its efficacy?
I'd guess your local newsheads didn't read it right. They're paid to be glib, not smart.
Yes, I believe that the overwhelming percentage of the time, authentic earnest prayers of folks earnestly attempting to live a redeemed, righteous life in Christ's Blood and Spirit in a genuine, intimate walk with Him have a great impact on the focus of the prayers.
It would be tricky indeed to ferret out situations where all the variables could be suitably isolated. Theoretically possible but very tricky.
Personally, I believe that past studies have been significantly flawed, too. Not all Christians by label are authentic Christians. And, not all even authentic Christians are called to intercessory prayer or taught well in the details of it.
Nevertheless, I think child-like faith is often sufficient to touch and move the heart and hand of God. A 4 year old's simple prayer can often have more impact than several churches full of self-righteous folks vainly pleading in flesh-driven ways.
In any case, I don't care to think through all the details of sufficiently well designed studies to answer your question. But I do think it's possible.
I also think that--depending on one's attitude, it's quite comfortable to God for us to ask Him to demonstrate His majesty. On the other hand, it can be a cheeky affrontery to challenge or test Him out of a bad faith attitude or bad faith kind of perspective or place. I wouldn't encourage that on the part of anyone.
Thanks for the reply.
You say that the "overwhelming percentage of the time, authentic earnest prayers of folks earnestly attempting to live a redeemed, righteous life in Christ's Blood and Spirit in a genuine, intimate walk with Him have a great impact on the focus of the prayers."
If it is in fact an overwhelming percentage of the time, it should be pretty obvious, no?
Now... the tough part. Who are these people? Are not all the dedicated nuns and monks and priests who prayed for the health of John Paul II part of that group?
Is there a particular denomination God listens to? What about all the American (and in fact, international) people who prayed for Ronald Reagan after he announced he had alzheimers? Did they have a positive effect on his health?
What about all the good, fine people here on FR who have prayed for various Freepers and their families or acquaintances? If the effect you posit is overwhelming, why have some succumbed?
I am a Christian. I'm not arguing based on some antagonism towards religion, but I am also a huge admirer of science and the knowledge it brings us, and I don't reject a study like this out of hand because it presents an uncomfortable truth.
Would we all like to believe prayer works? Of course. Anyone who's had a sick child would understand that. But my own experience shows it does not, and studies like this back up my conclusion.
God may well just not be interested in our petty lives and pleas.
I e-mailed the LA TIMES. Prayer does work because we pray for the LA Times to go out of business and it is working.
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