Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: Question_Assumptions
"At the core, IC will go around identifying things that haven't been explained yet, inviting their explanation."

At the core, your definition of IC can't exclude a natural way of reaching an IC status.

"All you really said was that you don't believe that a gene combination that can't be explained by natural processes exists."

No, I didn't say that. I only said that it is impossible to verify a designed process via your definition of IC.


"Like I said, it's entirely possible that intelligent aliens develop on a planet with lots of interference, develop in the oceans of their world, are blind to the EM spectrum, and so forth."

We are also blind to most of the em-spectrum. Radiation of heat is also part of the em-spectrum. If their shamans allow them to study physics they will discover em-waves.

"Suppose SETI searches 100% of the sky and finds no EM signals of the sort they are looking for. Then what? Do they give up or look for something different? Would anything have been proved either way?"

They will keep on searching. Why? The possibility for live is not zero in the universe. If something happened once, it could happened twice, three times ... .


MHalblaub:"The next step after detecting an ET-signal would be a call back. This step is impossible for IC."

"I think many religious people would disagree with you on that point. For a religious person, the presence of God can be as real as those signals. If you are an atheist or agnostic, I don't expect you to get it. Just accept that ID advocates don't consider God hypothetical."

That is the point where scientists draw the line between science and faith. Observations have to be reproducible no matter the observer is religious or not.

"I suspect that if they found good IC candidates, they'd try to find 'purpose' or 'meaning' in those genes just as SETI would look for 'purpose' or 'meaning' in any signals that they detect. Assuming intelligence, that's the logical next step"

As I told you before, you don't need to know purpose or meaning of any em-signal. It's the physical structure of the signal itself.
201 posted on 12/07/2005 3:12:51 AM PST by MHalblaub (Tell me in four more years (No, I did not vote for Kerry))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 199 | View Replies ]


To: MHalblaub
At the core, your definition of IC can't exclude a natural way of reaching an IC status.

Back to the original topic, neither can the SETI test for signs of extra-terrestrial intelligence. It's looking for signals that are likely artificial. IC is looking for systems that are likely created. But I should also point out that science accepts all sorts of ideas based on their probability of truth rather than certainty. That's why there are so many more theories than laws in science. In other words, from the other direction, science can't exclude a supernatural explanation or some other non-evolutional explanation for life on Earth, either. I think the level of certainty your demanding simply doesn't exist very often, even in real Science®.

If you've ever debated philosophy with a postmodernist, you'd realize that about the only thing we can really prove is "cognito ergo sum" -- "I think therefore I am". Almost everything else is conjecture because you can't exclude the possibility that everything you experience is artificial, a point played to great effect in movies like The Matrix.

No, I didn't say that. I only said that it is impossible to verify a designed process via your definition of IC.

It's only impossible if you rule out the ability to identify and understand the mutation paths necessary to get between two points. Given not only our growing understanding of genetics but our ability to reconstruct DNA from very old remains, it's no unthinkable that we will someday understand the starting point, the possible intermediate points, and the end point of a sequence of mutations and determine whether there is or there isn't a natural explanation of how to get between those two points because of the complexity of the changes. Essentially, you are making an appeal to ignorance here (which Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kid defines as "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence") -- we can't ever know if ID is true, thus we must assume it is false.

We are also blind to most of the em-spectrum. Radiation of heat is also part of the em-spectrum. If their shamans allow them to study physics they will discover em-waves.

We are blind to most, but not all. That's important. I again reference science fiction author Larry Niven's Kdatlyno, a race that uses sonar and touch but has no sight. They look up at their night sky to see only the end of their world because no stars or moons shine down on their eyes. Imagine doing electro-magnetic physics while totally blind.

As for "shamans", there are plenty of those in the sciences, too. Don't think that there isn't an orthodoxy and dogma in science. Scientists are human, after all.

They will keep on searching. Why? The possibility for live is not zero in the universe. If something happened once, it could happened twice, three times ... .

The possibility of God is not zero, either. The possibility that we are all brains in a vat, living life Matrix-style, is not zero. All you are really saying is that having one example of intelligent life crosses your own personal level of probability such that a search for intelligent life on other planets seems prudent to you. Against your single example, there are plenty of things pushing the odds in the other direction, including the Fermi Paradox and the large number of factors that could make a planet unsuitable for the development of life (remember that just because current life forms can exist in some very hostile environments does not mean that life could have started out in those same hostile environments -- the environment needed for life to first form could be so specialized that Earth is unique).

Going back to the original topic, that's why I said it's all about a gut level assessment of the odds. You believe that the odds were good that life evolved naturally on Earth and, thus, could have done so on other planets, even if you can't prove it beyond any doubt. Other people look at the same things you are looking at and assess the odds differently. You aren't being unreasonable, but neither are they. So long as it remains a guess, educated or not, one is not necessarily superior to the other.

I also want to know that if they failed to find an obvious EM signal, what other things might SETI search for?

That is the point where scientists draw the line between science and faith. Observations have to be reproducible no matter the observer is religious or not.

And that's fine. What ID is looking for is observable evidence of God via IC. Like I've said, that may be a fool's errand, but they are attempting to do exactly what you claim they should be doing to do Science®.

As I told you before, you don't need to know purpose or meaning of any em-signal. It's the physical structure of the signal itself.

And as I've told you, finding an EM signal with no known purpose or meaning only proves that you've found an EM signal that may not be natural. Applying your own test of validity, such a signal, without a known purpose, meaning, or method of creation, could not exclude that idea that it may have been formed naturally through some yet-unknown natural process. Thus, it would prove nothing. All it might do is increase the odds in favor of ET intelligence. Prove it? No.

203 posted on 12/07/2005 8:48:38 AM PST by Question_Assumptions
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 201 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson