Posted on 11/28/2005 9:03:31 AM PST by laney
Oh, the "Lamb" is clear there to me, as well, so maybe I don't get Aquina's point there --- I thought he/she was addressing the "icon" issue with that point (interpreting the Lamb to be a symbol of Christ and not Christ Himself).
But later posts indicate that it was the "saints" portion he or she was relying upon.
I am fairly confident that the "saints" used here, refers to all Christians, as Paul and others in the New Testament repeatedly refer to all believers as "saints."
Where is the Trinity in the Bible?
Absolutely not true - it is far from "generally agreed upon by all Christian faiths."
Elders, yes; saints, yes; exclusive to being saints, NO. You need to ignore the rest of the bible to believe that sainthood is:
1. Exclusively limited to only a few.
2. Bestowed upon men by other men (priests if you must).
Believers who have given themselves to the Lord via His/His Son's death on the Cross, are righteous, worthy, holy, and saints in His eyes.
You need to discount much of His Word in order to think that priests can confer any kind of meaningful sainthood or that it is limited to those that other men have so designated, or limited in any finite way other than by believe in and love of God.
""The Assumption", and generally agreed upon by all Christian faiths."
Actually, the assumption is pretty much rejected by all Christian denominations except the Roman catholic. (I don't know one way or the other about the various Orthodox positions, if any.)
Pretty much just Elijah and one other guy who I forget are assummed into heaven without death. (Even Christ died --- for a while, anyway.)
Similarly, the "eternal virginity" and "sinless" doctrines re: Mary are generally rejected. Indeed, most protestant denominations recognize "James" as Jesus's half-brother.
Not that this has one whit to do with the key point: Christ was sinless, very God of very God, died for our sins and defeated death.
The trinity may not be called such, but there is clearly reference to the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit to describe some of the mysterious nature of God. I'll give the religious folks that one with little argument...
Let us not prooftext out of context.
She's crying... with a hint of a smile? I'd like to see one of these statues change facial expression. Mary, if this is her, must feel awfully boxed up inside a statue that stonily insists on smiling when she's in grief.
Catholics believe that Jesus gave to Saint Peter and his successors the power to bind and loose on earth and in Heaven (Matthew 16:18). This is not just the power of excommunication that was granted to the other Apostles in Matthew 18:18.
All of the Eastern Orthodox churches accept it as dogma. They call it the Dormition of Mary.
It gets a little fuzzier with the Nestorian and Monophysite churches.
Seems so obvious... how can anyone call themselves Christian and fawn over a carved image?
I disagree, I believe the aforementioned has much to do with Christ's sinless nature.
If we followed that injuction to the letter our art would resemble that of Mecca and Medina.
Actually not....more like that of the Jews, which have no problem with representations--AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT WORSHIPPED. Of course the Orthodox Jews avoid any sort of representation of God but even with them, art of other things is honored.
As for the last part of the quote, Catholics don't worship statues - they revere the individuals they represent. As a matter of fact, even the pagan Romans and Greeks didn't actually worship the statutes of their gods - they recognized them as representations.
Fascinating you bring up the Greeks and Romans.... Your arguments are EXACTLY the arguments those ancient pagans brought up when Christians (actually Roman Catholic ones, ironically) of their day castigated their idolatry. Biblically obedient Christians then rejected the arguments....and so they do today.
Regardless of the idea of whether the diety is in the statue or not the command itself describes idolatry...as not simply having images but also BOWING DOWN AND WORSHIPING them. Anyone who prays before an image....is by definition breaking the command, period.
I think that the binding and loosing is addressed to the Church, which is in fact the believers that comprise the Church. if you read it in context, it is telling you to do what you can to save others from themselves, but barring that possibility, be shed of them so they don't, through their bad activities, cause others to forego the Gift.
15"If your brother sins against you,[b] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[c] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[d]bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven. 19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
"people again noticed a reddish substance near the eyes of the white concrete statue"
Concrete. Concrete statues have steel or iron interior frameworks. Water plus iron generates rust. A tiny crack lets the water and rust out. Red liquid that stains as it runs down the concrete.
Miracle explained. On to the next one.
IF it's cement. I thought of framework rustage too, but this stuff has a redder hue (rust is brownish red), and why is the colored liquid coming out the eye corners but not pooling at the bottom of the eye?
Substance has not been examined yet...
Now now....
Leni
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