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MSNBC.com 'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for Nov. 18th TRANSCRIPT Updated: 11:40 a.m. ET Nov. 21, 2005
Guests: John Murtha, Stansfield Turner, Bob Shrum, Christopher Hitchens, Maureen Dowd CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC ANCHOR....
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Maureen Dowd is a long-time columnist for the "New York Times" and the author of a new book, "Are Men Necessary." You raise an odd question, Maureen. Well? are they? MAUREEN DOWD, "NEW YORK TIMES": Well, you're not necessary in the way you used to be, in terms of reproduction and refinance. But you are going to be necessary as diversion, indulgence, comic relief. It would be much more pleasant. MATTHEWS: So our gender is now in the entertainment business? DOWD: Yes. MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about this war that's going on in Washington about this leak case. Do you find it odd--I can't remember of a case like it, where gender was involved. They didn't like this former diplomat who came back from Africa. So somebody or other--we know some of the names already--decide to nail her and ruin her career, apparently, out her, if you will. That's out of the mob, that kind of stuff, isn't it? DOWD: Exactly, it's disgusting. MATTHEWS: We'll get your family. DOWD: Yes, it's disgusting. MATTHEWS: And? What's it tell us about today? DOWD: Well, I think that, you know, they shouldn't have done it. And but they had to do a little scam to protect their big scam. MATTHEWS: You know, in the old days we were told--back in the days when I was working for Tip O'Neill, we were going to do something funny one night about Nancy Reagan, just a funny thing about the China--you've written about that stuff in the old days. And he said, don't ever do anything like that. I'm not funny if it's about the family. You've got to be real careful about family members, not even kidding around about it. DOWD: Right. I agree with him. MATTHEWS: Those days are over then. Now we go for the family. DOWD: Exactly. MATTHEWS: It's like Pentangeli in "Godfather II," right? We'll take care of your family if you commit suicide, that kind of stuff? DOWD: All of the answers are in "Godfather" and "Seinfeld." MATTHEWS: Katherine Hepburn once said--it was in an old Dick Cavett interview, and I thought it was fascinating. She said--was an independent woman, she wore pants. She never really stayed married with anybody. She had a lot of friends like Spencer Tracy and John Force. And she said, "a woman today can have anything she wants, but she can't have it all." DOWD: Well, I do think young women today are a little bit thinking that the baby boomer women, it was too much of a grind. They tried to have it all, and it was little too hard and I think they're sort of stepping back from that, and trying to have more by trying to work a little less hard, or maybe realizing that one partner has to revolve around the other a little more than they might have thought in the beginning. MATTHEWS: You mean, are they going on what's called the mommy track? DOWD: Well not necessarily. It could be the man revolving around the woman, but that something has to give, that--I think we were all suckered a little bit, by the Hepburn-Tracy movies and this sparring and totally equal careers. And sparring and that that what would be what would fascinate men. And in the end, I think, some men find it a little draining. I mean, look at--you and I love movies, right? Let's just look at it through the prism of how movies shape popular culture. What is the movie now that has the most equal sparing relationship? "Pride and Prejudice." I mean, they're not writing modern movies, you know, in the old Katharine Hepburn-Spencer Tracy way. Modern movies are more like J. Lo ... MATTHEWS: "Shopgirl." DOWD: ... "Shopgirl," J. Lo with a maid, "Spanglish" where the maid is the heroine or a maid who doesn't speak English. Steve Martin in "Shopgirl" calls it the, you know, "calm cushion of acceptance between unequals." MATTHEWS: But men would normally want to have a woman who was easier to take. DOWD: Well not all men. But maybe more men than the feminists thought, you know, when they started. MATTHEWS: Do you think if you met a guy socially and you said to him, you know, he doesn't know you from being in the "New York Times," and you said, well, yes, I work at a law firm, I'm a legal secretary. And would he find that more appealing than if you said, yes, I'm a partner. I'm up for managing partner, in fact? Do you think you would with have a better chance of this guy being nice to you and showing an interest in you? DOWD: Well, the book isn't really about me. MATTHEWS: Would a person--would a person like--that I just described who had a job that wasn't at the top of the food chain, as opposed to a person who did, be less threatening to the male? DOWD: Well, it depends on the male. But ... MATTHEWS: The kind of guys you would like? How would they react? DOWD: It's not a memoir, I promise. No one is going to want it if it's about me, believe me. MATTHEWS: Well, I'm just quoting it, because I think the theme of your book, from everybody and what I've read, it's basically that women who are as competitive as men are in their careers are formidable and that can be a negative. DOWD: Well that's only one--a few paragraphs of the book, actually. But it can also be a positive. You just have to find the right guys. MATTHEWS: OK, why are we making movies about a women as president, but the real booming pictures of this year, the one that's really catching on is "Commander-in-Chief" with Geena Davis? DOWD: Right. MATTHEWS: Is that credible for most people? Or is just a fantasy, the idea of actually having a woman president. DOWD: Well, Ann Richards ... MATTHEWS: The former governor. DOWD: I was in Texas last night--yes--and Ann Richards is thinking that "Commander-in-Chief" actually will help lay the groundwork for a female president. And, of course, everybody is salivating for a Hillary-Condi race because they would be more manly than recent Democratic candidates for president. MATTHEWS: Do you think Condi Rice would be nominated by the Republican party? DOWD: I've heard recently that she is interested because when people you don't think so? Because I think when people are told ... MATTHEWS: She's not a politician. DOWD: But I think when people are told they can be president, it gets in their blood like a virus. MATTHEWS: I think Hillary's got a great chance at the Democratic nomination. I don't know if she has a great chance for winning the presidential election. I think it's a very uphill battle for her. If we have a depression in the year 2008, anything goes. But, I think it's very tough for her to carry states like Michigan, and Pennsylvania, and Illinois. States where men have guns and attitudes about women. I just don't think they're open to the idea yet. DOWD: She got one Southern man, but can she get millions of others? MATTHEWS: I think if Giuliani runs against Hillary, look out, Hillary. But if McCain runs against her, he'll win. DOWD: That's what I think, too. MATTHEWS: We'll be right back with Maureen Dowd. And a reminder, the political debate is ongoing on Hardblogger, our political blog Web site. And you can now download Pod casts of HARDBALL. Just go to our Web site, HARDBALL.MSNBC.com. We're talking to Maureen Dowd, author of "Are men necessary?" (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MATTHEWS: We're back with New York Times columnist, Maureen Dowd, author of "Are men necessary?" Maureen is, by the way, a fascinating columnist. Is power an aphrodisiac? DOWD: For men, yes. MATTHEWS: They like having it. Women are attracted to it? DOWD: Although, a lot of men at the Times found Hillary's power an aphrodisiac when she'd come to editorial board lunches. MATTHEWS: They went for it. DOWD: Yes, Arthur Sulzberger seem quite fascinated with her. MATTHEWS: You write for The New York Times and therefore, you know a lot about New York. And I want to ask you this about Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton up close can be very nice, very easy to deal with. She's funny, she seems to have a sense of humor. She seems OK. She gets behind a microphone, however, and you get the stridency and the "I know it all and I'm lecturing you on everything." Why do women politicians tend to be--there are a couple of people like that. She's one of them. Why? DOWD: I agree with you. If you have dinner with her, she has a real sense of humor and James Carville has talked about how funny she is. But she is unable to convey that, in a way. But, it's like Al Gore. If you were privately having dinner with him, he had a good sense of humor. But he couldn't convey it. They just get very stiff. MATTHEWS: What does the microphone do to people like that? DOWD: They just can't do it. It's the opposite of Clinton, who comes alive with the microphone. MATTHEWS: I don't know, I think it's a little weird. Because a person who's able to be charming and fun in person to actually listen. And then they get behind the microphone. All they can do is lecture. And if I were voting, I'd vote on the basis of how they behaved behind the microphone, because that's the way they look at the country. "I'm here to lecture you, to tell you the truth. Here's how we deal with health care, big government, big programs. Take it or leave it." And people left it. I would go by the private charm, would you? DOWD: Well, did see the quote in my book by Leon Wieseltier where he says Hillary is like the housewife from hell, who is just going to nag you, and nag you, and nag you, until you make her president? MATTHEWS: But, she's only going to get one chance. The book, "How to win friends and influence people," says that you shouldn't criticize. DOWD: Really? MATTHEWS: What do you think of that? DOWD: Well, so does the Pope. The Pope says that you shouldn't be in an adversarial position to men if you're a woman. MATTHEWS: When men get in that voting booth, in the year 2008, in the primaries. It looks like Hillary will probably run for president. And they get in those booths, New Hampshire, early on, South Carolina. Do you think they're going to lie and say, "I'll vote for the woman" to the pollster. But they get in that booth and vote for that male? DOWD: Yes, to a certain extent, because we don't even have a female network anchor. So, how are we going to have a female president? MATTHEWS: Well, why do people keep saying they'll vote for her in the primary. She's got 47 percent. DOWD: Well, you know how polls are. It's how people like to think of themselves. MATTHEWS: Is it like African Americans when they say that white people say they're going to vote for somebody like Doug Wadden and they get in the booth and they don't do it? Or Bradley, Tom Bradley, the former police chief of Los Angeles? Twice, led in the polling for governor of California and lost both times. Why do people say the right thing, at least what they think is the right thing, and then do the other thing? DOWD: I don't know. Even David Geffen, who is one of Clinton's biggest supporters, says it would be a disaster if Hillary runs for the Democrat. MATTHEWS: Because he thinks men won't vote for her. DOWD: Well, he just thinks that she's all about ambition and that people see that in her and don't like it. That can also happen with a man, though. MATTHEWS: Is there a Democratic party death wish? If you look at the candidates, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry. All these candidates seem to be a little stiffer than most people. A little colder, a little more remote, a little more elite. And the Republicans seem to pick people for better or worse, that seem more regular, like Reagan and Bush. DOWD: Or they're able to pretend they're more regular. MATTHEWS: Well, what is it? DOWD: I think it's a death wish. MATTHEWS: The Democrats are a death wish. Why do the person that Democrats seem to like be the kind of person that most people won't? Why are their taste buds so different? DOWD: This Democratic congressman came to the Times from the South and he said he knows that Hillary's going to get the nomination. It's a juggernaut, it can't be stopped. But he can't even be in a picture with her, or he would lose constituents, if he was even seen with her. MATTHEWS: Where will Hillary win if she runs for president, wins the nomination of the Democratic party? New York? DOWD: Upstate New York? New York City, yes. MATTHEWS: Will she carry California? DOWD: I don't know. It only matters against--you know, the only thing that matters is who you're in the field with. Who she's running against. MATTHEWS: That's not true. DOWD: You don't think so?
DOWD: So you're one of those guys that gets in the voting booth and won't vote for the woman. MATTHEWS: No, I just think I know this country better than a lot of pollsters claim to know it. I think that people--I think the problem for women candidates is, it's almost a conflict. Women are used to collegial relationships, getting along. They have a group, they decide when to hold the meetings. They get along. It's much more easy to deal with. But they're not used to having a John Wayne at the top, who says here's how we're going to do it. You know, Margaret Thatcher? And so a woman who wants to be president, so she goes on listening tours. No male would go on a listening tour. I mean, they don't want to listen. They want to talk. So, she's doing all the right things to be a senator, and she could be a great senator for life. And maybe the leader of the Senate and be fabulous at it. But those skills of listening and getting along with your colleagues. DOWD: Karen Hughes went on a listening tour of the Muslim world. MATTHEWS: But I don't think that makes you look like a president. What do you think? It's your book. DOWD: Well, you know, we learned with Ferraro that women do not vote for women because they're women. And in fact, sometimes, it's the reverse. And as one Republican consultant said, if you get 11 guys, you've got a football team. If you get 11 women, you've got a riot, explaining why women did not vote for Ferraro. MATTHEWS: Wow. Maureen Dowd. You're unbelievable. DOWD: Chris Matthews. MATTHEWS: You are fabulous. I look up to you. You are the champion of all good people. Twice a week for The New York Times. And there you go again with a best-seller. "Are men necessary?" A provocative title, a provocative title, I must say. I'm looking at this cover, maybe we'll all look at it together. Very provocative. Is that you? HARDBALL. We'll be back again Monday night at five and seven Eastern. Maureen Dowd has been sitting with me. Right now, it's time for "The Abrams Report" with Dan. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. Copy: Content and programming copyright 2005 MSNBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant,Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon MSNBC and Voxant, Inc.'s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation. Watch Hardball with Chris Matthews each weeknight at 5 & 7 p.m. ET
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MATTHEWS: No, I think Pee Wee Herman would give her a race. I think Pee Wee Herman and Hillary Clinton--I wouldn't bet too big on that one.