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"...Darwin meant by evolution the process whereby life arose from non-living matter and subsequently developed entirely by natural means. This is a form of scientific materialism that Freeman Dyson decries in "Science and Religion Can Work Together." (APS News, November 2000.) Richard Dawkins, famed author of "The Blind Watchmaker," has said that Darwin made it possible to be an "intellectually fulfilled atheist."

Scientists and teachers ought to make it clear... that evolution and cosmology are working assumptions, not established facts.

Unlike physics, evolution and cosmology are sciences in the sense of forensic science.

The evidence for evolutionary transition of humans from apelike ancestors is not abundant enough to conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it has occurred. That is why the overwhelming majority of Americans still believe in a Creator.

The foundation of modern science was laid down by devout Christians (Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Maxwell, Planck, etc.) who studied nature to know more about its Creator.

It was the extension of the evolutionary ideas of Darwin to an atheistic world view that accentuated the false antagonism between science and religion.

Such mixing of science, philosophy, and theology must be openly discussed.

What people object to is the teaching of an atheistic world view in the guise of science. Students of faith ought not to come out of biology classes with the notion that there is no God. Otherwise, theology and not merely biology is being taught in such classes.

Clearly everything evolves. However, it is not self-evident to me that the fundamental question of origins is a truly scientific question.

If not, then the answer must be sought in the very same places where we seek answers to questions regarding meaning, values, and purpose. One must never forget that an explanation of the totality of the human experience may lie outside the realm of science.

The honest pursuit of an answer to the question of origins may lead ultimately to an Intelligent Designer.

Max Planck, Nobel laureate and father of quantum physics, said: "God is at the beginning of every religion and at the end of the natural sciences." Let us not forget that our nation is founded on the creed that our freedom and unalienable rights are endowed by our Creator. ~ Moorad Alexanian, Professor of Physics University of North Carolina at Wilmington http://origins.swau.edu/who/moorad/cmoorad98.html

Source: http://www.asa3.org/archive/asa/200012/0055.html


20 posted on 10/09/2005 1:12:02 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: Matchett-PI
The honest pursuit of an answer to the question of origins may lead ultimately to an Intelligent Designer.

This may very well be the case, but science needs to reach those conclusions based on research, not leaps of faith. I doubt that anyone with a stomach ache would have much confidence in a physician who immediately wished to perform surgery without evidentiary testing to confirm his or her hypothesis.

Sadly, religious impatience with the Scientific Method leads many to question whether the Faithful truly have "faith".

27 posted on 10/09/2005 1:31:20 PM PDT by Aracelis ("Embrace the madness" - courtesy of PatrickHenry, used with permission)
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To: Matchett-PI
The evidence for evolutionary transition of humans from apelike ancestors is not abundant enough to conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it has occurred.

Yes it is. There's enough DNA evidence in the ERV virus insertions common between apes and humans to demonstrate common ancestry to a higher statistical probability than that the DNA at Ron and Nichole's murder scene belonged to OJ.

It was the extension of the evolutionary ideas of Darwin to an atheistic world view that accentuated the false antagonism between science and religion.

Evolution is a scientific theory of how species change, and does not speak to whether a deity exists. Yes, some athiests use evolution to push their worldview, but they are dishonestly doing so just like you are dishonestly claiming that evolution and faith are mutually exclusive.

You've been around these threads plenty long enough to know this stuff M-PI. So what's your real agenda?

28 posted on 10/09/2005 1:34:22 PM PDT by narby (Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
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To: Matchett-PI; Aracelis; narby
Matchett-PI has already had his false statements corrected many times before, so he *knows* they're false when he makes them, but just in case people new to the topic might read his post and mistake his comments for some sort of gospel (*cough*), I think it's important to point out yet again where he is posting outright falsehoods. I've already debunked this sort of thing, oh, several hundred times before, so I'll just list the errors to save time, but if anyone wants any particular item documented or explained, let me know and I'll be glad to do so.

Scientists and teachers ought to make it clear... that evolution and cosmology are working assumptions, not established facts.

False. While they aren't "established facts" (*nothing* in science ever is -- science does not deal in "proofs"), they're far, far more than mere "working assumptions". Modern cosmology has a very large amount of evidence supporting it, and evolution has *enormous* mountains of evidence and 150+ years of research supporting it, so much that it's about as close to an "established fact" as one is likely to find.

Unlike physics, evolution and cosmology are sciences in the sense of forensic science.

Wrong again.

The evidence for evolutionary transition of humans from apelike ancestors is not abundant enough to conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it has occurred.

Utter bollocks. The amount of independently cross-confirming evidence for the evolutionary transitiono f humans from apelike ancestors is overwhelming, and has passed the "beyond a reasonable doubt" point decades ago. It has only become even more solidly confirmed since then, with massive amounts of evidence pouring out of the human (and chimpanzee) genome project. Any claim to the contrary is, quite frankly, either the result of gross ignorance or gross dishonesty.

That is why the overwhelming majority of Americans still believe in a Creator.

False dichtomy (and false conclusion) -- the *majority* of Americans who accept evolution are *also* Christians.

The foundation of modern science was laid down by devout Christians (Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Maxwell, Planck, etc.) who studied nature to know more about its Creator.

Irrelevant to any claim Matchett-PI attempts to make here. But it is amusing that he seems to miss the fact that the evidence for evolution and other sciences which extremist creationists now try to reject was so strong that it convinced even the "devout Christians" who developed those sciences.

It was the extension of the evolutionary ideas of Darwin to an atheistic world view that accentuated the false antagonism between science and religion.

Yawn. Not hardly. Fundamentalist sects of religions (including Islam) have been opposing various aspects of science itself for hundreds of years, long before Darwin was even born. Quick, now, what "extension of the evolutionary ideas of Darwin" drove the "antagonism between science and religion" which caused the Church to persecute Galileo for advocating the "false and heretical doctrine" that the Earth went around the Sun instead of vice versa?

Such mixing of science, philosophy, and theology must be openly discussed.

No objection here. Just please don't misrepresent it.

What people object to is the teaching of an atheistic world view in the guise of science.

If you ever find anyone actually doing that, feel free to let me know and I'll object to it too. But don't try to pretend that that's what the anti-evolution crusaders are actually objecting to. They're objecting to the teaching of the *science* itself.

Students of faith ought not to come out of biology classes with the notion that there is no God.

They ought not to be *taught* that. But if they arrive at that conclusion on their own (*or* its opposite), who are you to decree otherwise, or go on some sort of jihad about it?

Otherwise, theology and not merely biology is being taught in such classes.

Wrong again. It's not "teaching theology" to teach non-religious that might possibly affect someone's religious views. If your faith is so weak that learning more about how the world works causes your faith to suffer, well...

Clearly everything evolves. However, it is not self-evident to me that the fundamental question of origins is a truly scientific question.

Oddly enough, reality is not dependent upon what you yourself happen to find "self-evident".

If not, then the answer must be sought in the very same places where we seek answers to questions regarding meaning, values, and purpose.

Feel free to seek it there as well, but don't try to decide for everyone else where it "must" be sought, or limit such searches to the *ONE* place *you* think might be fruitful.

One must never forget that an explanation of the totality of the human experience may lie outside the realm of science.

Very true. Or it may not.

The honest pursuit of an answer to the question of origins may lead ultimately to an Intelligent Designer.

Or may lead to the opposite conclusion. But according to you, that would magically become "teaching theology". Hmm..

48 posted on 10/09/2005 3:52:52 PM PDT by Ichneumon (Certified pedantic coxcomb)
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To: Matchett-PI
Unlike physics, evolution and cosmology are sciences in the sense of forensic science.

Oh, goody. Now we are going to argue about the atheist cosmologists.

BTW, cosmology is based on physics. Indeed, it is essentially entirely physics. It is part of most physics departments and it is certainly a major part of the physics department of any major university.

52 posted on 10/09/2005 4:03:14 PM PDT by 2ndreconmarine
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To: Matchett-PI
Such mixing of science, philosophy, and theology must be openly discussed. That's fine for philosophy and theology class. Students looking for a career in science need to be studying science without the philosophical and theological baggage.
55 posted on 10/09/2005 4:14:39 PM PDT by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: Matchett-PI
Scientists and teachers ought to make it clear... that evolution and cosmology are working assumptions, not established facts.

If that is the case, what then is CS/ID?

I would suggest that evolution and cosmology are scientific theories, with a lot of supporting data.

CS is a religious belief. At the simplest, it says that a creator started the ball rolling and let it go from there.

Young earth creationism is a subset of this religious belief which says the early is some 6,000 years old; it has to distort much of geology, archaeology, paleontology, biology, and several other sciences to try to get any traction at all.

ID is a religious belief which has been pushed since the late 1980s, when CS was banned from schools. It is disguised as science, and denies god, in an attempt to get it into schools.

Please note, none of these versions of CS/ID are scientific in nature. They are religious beliefs.

Why are you trying to mix the two vastly separate fields? Don't you know the difference? Or are you hoping that we don't?

105 posted on 10/09/2005 8:19:17 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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