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To: conservonator

The idea that the keys gave Peter primacy was first mentioned by Optatus, who lived in the fourth century. This is an example of looking back into the Bible to get what you want out of it.

Getting back to 1 Clement...

We know that the letter contains factual errors. We also know that this letter lays the foundation for the papal succession. Should we believe the letter contains doctrinal truth?

Here comes circular papal logic to the rescue. According to Papal Infallibility, all Popes are protected by the Holy Spirit from doctrinal errors. So 1 Clement contains doctrinal truths even though it contains factual errors. Therefore the papacy is established.

However, 1 Clement also claims inspiration. This is a problem. Works inspired by the Holy Spirit are protected from all errors. However, 1 Clement contains factual errors so it can not be inspired. So if 1 Clement claims to be inspired and it is not then it contains doctrinal errors. Therefore the doctrinal foundation of the papacy is in question.

1 Clement is the base on which the Papal House of Cards is built. The Church is built on the unshifting rock. The Catholic Church is built on 1 Clement.


150 posted on 09/28/2005 11:32:36 PM PDT by Tao Yin
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To: Tao Yin
The Keys are and were an ancient symbol or authority that any knowledgeable Jew would have recognized for what it was. To claim that the keys represent some sort of symbolic key to understanding Scripture is be ignorant of history and Scripture itself. Besides, if the key's did hold some sort of Bible interpretive power, you will note that Peter and ONLY peter was given the Keys.
153 posted on 09/29/2005 8:20:54 AM PDT by conservonator (Pray for those suffering)
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To: Tao Yin
The idea that the keys gave Peter primacy was first mentioned by Optatus,

Absolutely fascinating. Explain to us, then, what the early Christians thought the handing of the keys over to Peter meant if it did not mean granting Peter a leadership role amongst equals?

You can hypothesize anything you want 2000 years later in retrospect, but historically the Church has never had a problem with the Bishop of Rome being a leader amongst equals. If you look back, there were in fact several "Sees" in addition to the "Holy See" in Rome - there was one in Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople, etc. - and there was a heirarchy to this listing of "Sees" within the Christian Church and guess which "See" was on the top of that list?

Now, granted, the position of the Papacy has evolved quite a bit since its original inception, but then again, what in Christendom hasn't? Our understanding of the Trinity alone has evolved considerably from the beginning of the early Church.

Unless of course, you're suggesting that all Christian truth and teaching remain stagnant and not grow in depth and clarification.
155 posted on 09/29/2005 9:18:23 AM PDT by mike182d ("Let fly the white flag of war." - Zapp Brannigan)
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To: Tao Yin
Tao Yin,

I would research the doctine of papal infallibility before commenting any further on it. You clearly lack a sufficient understanding of what this belief actually entails.

If the Pope said "It must be 90 degrees outside!" and the temperature is only 85 degrees, the Pope's infallibility does not therefore stand in question. The doctrine of Papal Infallibility only states that the Pope, and the greater body of Bishops, will not teach in error specifically on matters of faith and morals.

If you can provide a belief pronounced as doctrine to believed by all Christians that either a) contradicts prior teachings of the Church or b) is theologically in error then you have an argument. But, unfortunately for you, such is not the case.

Infallibility doesn't mean that everything that comes from the Pope's mouth, even if it pertains to the faith, is absolutely without error.

Why is it that Protestants always put the Pope on a higher pedestal than Catholics themselves?
156 posted on 09/29/2005 9:25:14 AM PDT by mike182d ("Let fly the white flag of war." - Zapp Brannigan)
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To: Tao Yin
The idea that the keys gave Peter primacy was first mentioned by Optatus, who lived in the fourth century. This is an example of looking back into the Bible to get what you want out of it.

I'm sorry, there was just so much error in your post that I couldn't let it go :-)

Tertullian in 220 AD - a century before your claim:

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, 'On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven' [Matt. 16:18-19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed" (Modesty 21:9-10 [a.D. 220])."

As I said, please do more research on the Papacy.
158 posted on 09/29/2005 9:30:11 AM PDT by mike182d ("Let fly the white flag of war." - Zapp Brannigan)
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