Posted on 09/10/2005 10:30:16 AM PDT by Unreconstructed Selmerite
As regular readers in this column know, my reporting senior and lawful sovereign is His Imperial Majesty Kaiser Wilhelm II. When I finally report in to that great Oberste Heeresleitung in the sky, I expect to do so as the Kaiser’s last soldier.
Why? Well, beyond Bestimmung, the unhappy fact is that Western civilization’s last chance of survival was probably a victory by the Central Powers in World War I. Their defeat let all the poisons of the French Revolution loose unchecked, which is the main reason that we now live in a moral and cultural cesspool.
(Excerpt) Read more at military.com ...
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If any of you are still lurking in this Jacobin pit. Been a long time since I pinged the list, mainly because I simply don't come here alot. If anyone is more active and wants to take over the list send me a frmail.
A victory for Germany would have avoided bolshevism in Russia and the Second World War. We don't know what would have replaced these calamities though.
The Western civilization committed a suicide in 1914. No matter who won in 1918, the social, spiritual and cultural collapse would have continued, perhaps along a slightly improved trajectory.
And now I am going to read the article....
No. Russia's monarchy would have suffered the same fate - defeat, actual or perceived, would have killed it off. The only winning move for Russia was not to play.
Those who organised the Black Hand movement to assassinate Archduke Franz Ferdinand have a lot to answer for.
Regards, Ivan
While we're rehashing early 20th century history, I may as well lay some blame at the door of King Edward VII, the man who took over the throne after Queen Victoria.
Edward liked to go to Paris, drink, smoke cigars and have inappropriate relationships with actresses. Because he liked Paris, as King, he set up a peace treaty with France, without the express wishes of the British Government. This was the Entente Cordiale, which set us up on the side of the French and Russians. We did not need this. We had no interest in doing this. And we paid dearly for this in the First World War.
Thanks a lot, Eddie.
Regards, Ivan
Yes, but a strong Germany would have been a check on the Bolshevik expansion, if even it had gone permanently Bolshevik under these circumstances.
As the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk showed, the Germans were prepared to parlay with the Bolsheviks. Furthermore, there is evidence to suggest they actually funded Lenin's activities (there is a deficit in the accounts of his party which can only be explained by financial assistance from Germany).
If the Germans were prepared to support the Whites, then it might be a different matter, but that is not altogether clear.
Regards, Ivan
Sure the Germans funded the Bolsheviks.
Brest-Litovsk was no "party". The Germans owned the Ukraine and felt no need to occupy Russia proper. Brest-Litovsk was a virtual capitulation by the Soviets to that fact.
"A victory for Germany would have avoided bolshevism in Russia and the Second World War"
--- Recall though that it was the Germans who shipped Lenin at al on a sealed train into Russia.
Yes, to take Russia out of the war.
The scenario in the article is, Germany abandons the Schliffen plan, leaves France alone, and fights Russia. Despite treaty obligations, France and Britain then engage in an earlier case of funny war, because their livelihood is not threatened by the events on the Eastern Front. The Russian Empire collapses, but without the exhaustion of a 3-year trench warfare, the Bolshies have no chance and instead a weak and democratic government is established. Russia stays benign, German interests are directed toward the East, and the Western civilization dies at a slower rate.
The war started because the Tsar's government supported Serbian regicides. While I do not approve of the deal with Lenin in the least, it has a sort of tragic poetic justice to it.
I didn't realize you were still here. (I'm usually not either.)
I doubt very much that Tsar Nicholas II or his government in 1914 knew about the connections between Gavrilo Princip, the Black Hand, and the Serbian government.
What I don't know is whether Kaiser Wilhelm II personally authorized the deal with Lenin. I get the impression that he was not really in control of much by 1918. Certainly Bl. Emperor Karl was horrified when he learned of the plan. But of course no one on either side was listening to him...
Russia started to lose its lofty principles when the Russian ambassador was permitted to stand at a playing of la Marseillaise. I am fairly certain that this was in the very late nineteenth century.
After that, it's a small step to supporting Serbian regicides.
But history plays tricks. So the French monarchy was bankrupted by its support for the American rebels, only to be toppled later by its own rebels, with the ungrateful Yankees cheering on the executioners of their former beneficiary.
Sort of like the Americans supporting the mujahadeen against the Russians in Afganistan, only to have them turn on us.
Yes. But according to Robert K. Massie in Nicholas and Alexandra it wasn't just the ambassador:
Despite the great differences in their political systems, the needs of diplomacy had made military allies of Europe's greatest republic and its most absolute autocracy...In 1891, the French fleet visited Kronstadt, and the Autocrat of all the Russias stood bareheaded while the bands played the Marseillaise. Until that moment it had been a criminal offense to play this revolutionary song anywhere in the Tsar's dominions. (p. 60)
An unfortunate exception to Alexander III's otherwise "reactionary" reign.
So the French monarchy was bankrupted by its support for the American rebels, only to be toppled later by its own rebels, with the ungrateful Yankees cheering on the executioners of their former beneficiary.
That's about the most concise and accurate summary of the events of the 18th century I've read. Today, of course, American neocon dimwits despise the French (for all the wrong reasons), forgetting that if it hadn't been for French aid there might not be a United States to dominate the world...
That’s an...interesting...take on affairs.
“I generally only visit if summoned to one of the royalist threads.
Russia started to lose its lofty principles when the Russian ambassador was permitted to stand at a playing of la Marseillaise. I am fairly certain that this was in the very late nineteenth century.”
Yeah, that was a mistake, listening to the French National Anthem (BTW, a little historical tidbit: Before they wrote the Communist Internationale as their anthem, the Bolsheviks actually used la Marseillaise).
“But history plays tricks. So the French monarchy was bankrupted by its support for the American rebels, only to be toppled later by its own rebels, with the ungrateful Yankees cheering on the executioners of their former beneficiary.”
Yeah, about that, the only ones who actually rooted for those monsters were Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin (kind of). Alexander Hamilton actually was against the French Revolution and wisely realized that the French Revolution would end badly. Heck, John Adams actually predicted from the very start that the French Revolution would turn out very badly even if they were to succeed in killing Louis XVI. And even George Washington refused to support or go against France, electing that they stay neutral throughout the affair (and he had very choice words against the Illuminati, whom he strongly suspected were the ones who backed the French Revolution). Aside from them, most of the American populace at the time were downright horrified at the French Revolution largely because of the anti-Christian persecutions. In fact, it was so bad that in 1799, during his speech to some graduates at Yale, Timothy Dwight, at that time the headmaster, specifically laid the blame for the Revolution on the likes of Voltaire and Diderot, and made clear it was the atheistic elements of the Enlightenment that ruined France. And for the record, I’m not fond of Thomas Paine or Thomas Jefferson precisely because of their support for those butchers. And at least one part of America actually was grateful for King Louis XVI, and that was the South (specifically, Bourbon Country, which was named after the French monarchy as thanks for their role in their declaring independence from Britain). I do agree you on one thing, though: We really shouldn’t denounce France, especially when they’re the reason we even exist. I do think that we should return the favor and make sure their monarchy is restored, though.
“Sort of like the Americans supporting the mujahadeen against the Russians in Afganistan, only to have them turn on us.”
Eh, it’s a bit more complicated than that, actually. The mujahideen were indeed backed by us Americans, but the group you’re referring to, al Qaeda, was not one of the mujahideen we backed. They got their own sources for weapons and materiel, not to mention camps. This was in the commission report for 9/11. Plus, the mujahideen still acted as our allies even afterwards, the ones we did directly aid anyways (as a matter of fact, many of them were even willing to help us take out Osama bin Laden. Unfortunately, the President at the time, Bill Clinton, decided to forego no less than 10 chances to get rid of bin Laden, which is ultimately one of the reasons why al Qaeda ultimately succeeded in doing the September 11 terrorist attacks, not to mention the USS Cole bombing before that and Black Hawk Down and all of that. You can find that out in, among other things, The Path to 9/11 [or rather, the deleted scene that only got cut because the Clintons instigated a media circus to protect their legacy.].).
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