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To: RobFromGa
What it really shows is that Dr. J. assumes the workers will get only their after income tax pay. There is obviously a difference of opinion as to the matter; that is not the same thing as a misrepresentation as the Squirrels like to claim. I haven't yet decided which approach is correct but that has no effect on the benefits of the FairTax to the economy overall.

It will certainly all shake out in the end before the bill is passed - and it will be passed since there are too many benefits to the US economy for it not to pass.

Regardless of the differences on the percent of wages taken home (or not), there is still he matter of business income taxes (and no, s-test, that is not just Subchapter C-corps but all businesses). Those cascading embedded taxes are done away with by the FairTax whether you admit it or not - and they are sizeable. Are you pretending that they do not go to lowering prices?? And the taxes ARE calculated as the amount of tax paid divided by the amount of income subject to taxes just as the example (and the IRS SOI) shows (called "tax rate" in the example) and NOT as a percent of revenue.

Keep in mind the example included only business income taxes and not employees' taxes or compliance costs. So that others can see how the embedded tax mechanism works, here's the example again using the marginal tax rate of the Subchapter C corporations that s-test insists are the only business tax payers:

	LEVEL		1	2	3	4	5	6
		INPUT	$1.00	$1.44	$2.08	$3.01	$4.34	$6.27
33.00%	PROFIT MARGIN	$0.33	$0.48	$0.69	$0.99	$1.43	$2.07
34.40%	TAX RATE	$0.11	$0.16	$0.24	$0.34	$0.49	$0.71
	SELL PRICE	$1.44	$2.08	$3.01	$4.34	$6.27	$9.05
							
Accumulated tax costs	$0.11	$0.28	$0.51	$0.86	$1.35	$2.06
Tax costs as % of 	7.86%	13.31%	17.09%	19.70%	21.51%	22.77%
   sell price

And, oh, yes, s-test does not understand the mechanism and tries to make it out to be some sort of compilation of arriving as a sales price - that's not what's involved but instead is an insight into how income tax paid by business is embedded into prices and cascades being taxed again at the next level. Nightie also tries to warp this into something it is not.

What it is is a simple example that clearly illustrates the mechanism of cascading embedded tax costs - these are over and above tax on employees wages and over and above compliance costs.

311 posted on 08/25/2005 5:38:09 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: pigdog
LOL! Keep spinning, pigdog. Whatever you say, the "embedded tax mechanism" for corporate income taxes could not "cascade" to a greater amount that the total corporate income taxes collected, $189.4 billion in 2004. That's only 1.74% of the FairTax base plus exports. That's not much of a price drop!

Face it, pigdog, You were wrong. Be a man and admit it.
313 posted on 08/25/2005 5:59:51 PM PDT by Your Nightmare
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To: pigdog
Tell it to Jorgenson he was the economist of record for the Fairtax for years...He's the one whose model you people have been misrepresenting all these years.

Your chart is a pathetic joke a normal person would be ashamed of. It's not based on any reality whatsoever...

318 posted on 08/25/2005 6:54:42 PM PDT by lewislynn (Status quo today is the result of eliminating the previous status quo. Be careful what you wish for)
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To: pigdog; RobFromGa
"do to my poor HTML, nicely formated chart not carried over"

Thank you for posting this. I hadn't had the time to put it together myself. Since it may not be obvious to everyone, lets look only at the tax at level 1.

Level 1 = $0.11
Level 2 = $0.11 + ($0.11 * .33) = $0.1463
Level 3 = $0.1463 + ($0.1463 * .33) = $0.1946
Level 4 = $0.1946 + ($0.1946 * .33) = $0.2588
Level 5 = $0.2588 + ($0.2588 * .33) = $0.3440

So, at the end consumer, that $0.11 Corp tax costs the consumer $0.3440 after each layer adds their percent of profit on top.

This is where the embedded taxes end up costing the consumers more than the total tax collected. It also does not even broach the subject of compliance costs or payroll tax which would also be cascaded at the same level.

Is there research that shows the typical number of levels in a manufactured product?
324 posted on 08/25/2005 7:14:51 PM PDT by Gvl_M3
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To: pigdog
What it really shows is that Dr. J. assumes the workers will get only their after income tax pay. There is obviously a difference of opinion as to the matter; that is not the same thing as a misrepresentation as the Squirrels like to claim. I haven't yet decided which approach is correct but that has no effect on the benefits of the FairTax to the economy overall.

The Boortz/Linder book clearly sells the plan as being one where all wage earners would realize an immediate gain in purchasing power. This is an impossible "free lunch" plan when it is described that way. Dr. Jongenson confirmed that he was NOT modelling a "free lunch" plan.

Perhaps the misrepresentation is inadvertent and caused by ignorance, I do not know. I do not allege malice. But now that they have been made aware of the error, they must take some action to correct the wrong explanations that they have given in their book.

As I have said many times, my interest in this is to discuss the FairTax plan honestly as it was intended to be implemented and then decide whether it is a good approach or not.

You, pigdog, appear to still cling to your dreams of the "free lunch". Face the facts, pigdog, without the worker payroll and income taxes reduced from a businesses costs, there is nothing else to get an immediate reduction of more than about ten percent-- tops. And it could be as low as 7-8% savings.

330 posted on 08/25/2005 7:53:16 PM PDT by RobFromGa (Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran-- what are we waiting for?)
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To: Gvl_M3; pigdog; RobFromGa; groanup
One more thing.

A more controllable way to decipher these accumulated tax costs is to reverse the model offered by pigdog (as my original treatment of this topic did.) By starting with consumer price and recursively extracting tax costs from any number of levels of production upstream, the model quickly approaches a finite limit of the true embedded tax (ie, the model converges) rather than exploding ad-infinitum depending on the inputs and number of levels you choose (ie, the model diverges.)

This top down approach will never give such untennable answers as "the tax accumulated after the nth level of production exceeds the total of all Federal tax receipts..." as pigdog's method can. And it doesn't require you to know the number of level of production ... by choosing a suitably large number, the top down model converges.

366 posted on 08/26/2005 2:33:31 AM PDT by Dimples
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