Russian chopper down in Chechnya

BBC ^ | Tuesday, 22 March, 2005

[Grzegorz 246]

A Russian Mi-8 military helicopter has crashed in the war-ravaged Chechnya region, with some reports saying six people on board were killed. The crash happened 20km (13 miles) from the main Russian military base at Khankala, near Grozny.

It is not clear whether the crash was caused by technical difficulties or rebel activity.

Chechen separatists have been battling Russian forces in the region for more than five years.

Nine passengers and three crew were said to be on board the aircraft.

But sources differed on casualty figures, with some officials saying no one had died.

Helicopter crashes are common in Chechnya, with a number lost to rebel ground fire, but others coming down because of pilot error or technical malfunctions.

The last incident happened on 11 March, when a helicopter hit power lines, killing 11 soldiers.

Bullet holes were later reportedly found in the tail.

The crash came just three days after the death of Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov.

[twinself]

From 1939-41 yes. BUT your pictures and capital letters intented to beleive that USSR was ALWAYS Hitler ally. Whiah is against even most unreasonable but logic:)

I NEVER said that USSR was ALWAYS Hitler's ally. You're implying things I've never suggested. Anyway - for Stalin Hitler was perfectly OK as long as they could steal, rob and kill together (from 1939 to 1941). He BECAME the ENEMY when he dared to attack Soviet Republic. Is that true?

Anyway what USSR took from Poland wasn't polish lands. But lands of ukranians and bellorussians. WHat USSR gave back to Poland is Gdansk, part of Silesia, Stettin and other historical german lands. So for Poland it was exchange one land which never belonged to Poland on anther land which never belonged to Poland too.

Oh yes, for ages it belonged to independent state of Poland and Polish - Lithuanian kingdom before that. As well as Silesia or Pomerania belonged to Prussia or Holy Empire for many ages. The point you're making is unreasonable. What does it mean that it wasn't Polish? It was not Russian historically either (Wilno, Grodno, Lwow). So why did you take this under your protectorate/occupation? The answer is simple - to push away the German or Polish threat far from USSRS borders. BTW Konigsberg is not yours historically - give it back to Germany or whoever it should belong.

[RussianBoor]

Great point!

Guys, do we really need to answer these obvious provocations? Remember the fable about the Elephant and the Pug?

For those who do not know may refresh their memory here

Have a nice day and let our Polish friend do something more useful that to revise history.

For our Polish friends (God save me from such friends and I will somehow manage my foes :)) I only say that you have grabbed much land that were not yours in 1600 and around. Mongols helped you, you always were too weak to grab anything by yourself (again remember Yalta and Silesia and the role of the USSR :)). Let us not forget that as early as in 1380, the staunchest ally of Khan Mamai against Russians in the battle on the Kulikovo field was Polish king Vladislaus II. That's to refresh out Polish friends' memory who think that Russia had treacherously attacked them in 18th century. I even do not speak of what Polish were doing in the forests near Kostroma in 1612.

Now you at last have the borders that, in view of such a history, one would consider highly satisfactory. You have these borders because Soviet Union defeated Germany and Germany (fortunately for you) does not request you to give its former territories back. Speaking about Koenigsberg please do not forget about Western Prussia and to whom it belonged before the WWII. We Russians will gladly give back Koenigsberg to Germany when you Polish do the same with all your Baltic coast and Western territories including Silesia and Stettin. If you are not prepared to do that, I suggest that you shut up and entertain your dreams of getting back the lands that you picked after Mongols elsewhere. Thanks.

[RussianBoor]

Basically, now I understand a little bit better why Great Powers decided to bother with partitions of Poland. It seems these guys could not be reasonable even at that times and the only thing they were able to understand was brutal force. I wish Ekaterina the Great would not participate in this affair though. Polish uprising of 1830 did a lot to turn Nikolaus I into authoritarian emperor and dashed all hopes of reforms in Russia. We never had anything but trouble from Poland. Fortunately, except Kaliningrad/Koenigsberg, we do not have common borders and Poles are not our problem now.

[twinself]

We Russians will gladly give back Koenigsberg to Germany when you Polish do the same with all your Baltic coast and Western territories including Silesia and Stettin.

Really? Great!!! But you first. Then we, after you. We don't like to have a friend behind our back (September 1939, you know).

[RussianBoor]

Former partner in crime and all that are just words. I used to be an opponent of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Now I am not. If not for the Pact, by 1941 German troops would have been stationed in Poland and Baltic states about 100 km from St. Petersburg. St. Petersburg would then be indefensible and the Soviet Union could easily loose the war altogether. Then Europe will be definitively under Nazi for long long time. Americans would not intervene and British would eventually come to terms with Nazi. May I remind you that the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was concluded only after Poland and Baltic states refused any defense cooperation with the USSR. The decision to join Nazi in dividing Poland and Baltics was not pretty and now we are paying for this but I think it was the least of all evils for us as a nation and probably the world.

[RussianBoor]

We don't like to have a friend behind our back

You know, do you as a nation have any friends at all? I do not mean some distant islands like Fiji. You hate Ukrainians, you look down at Belorussians as former subjects, you cannot accept Lithuanians because they took Wilno, you hate Germans. You hate us. Do you like somebody except yourselves and maybe Americans because you think you can always use them to pull hot chestnuts for you? Well, it is certainly your problem. Just curious.

[RusIvan]

Oh yes, for ages it belonged to independent state of Poland and Polish - Lithuanian kingdom before that. ==

If you say so then I say that for AGES some land where Poland today belonged to Russian Empire.
According SAME and YOUR logic those lands (which I presume belong to polish people) may be belonged to Russian Empire.

So you see you eager to grab ukranian and bellorussian land then don't whine if some country grab something from you:).

[RussianBoor]

I see you almost quit this discussion (and I am going to do the same :)) Just curious if you can read Russian, I am sorry, I could not find anywhere English translation of this article, not on the Net, anyway. This is an old paper by G.V. Vernadsky published in Prague in 1925 where he analyzes two ways that Russia had to confront the Mongolian invasion. Prince Daniil of Galich has decided to side with the West and with Poland in particular as Christians against pagans and Muslims. As a reward, Galich was conquered by Polish King Casimir III. Galich is now called Galicia and our (other) Polish friends do not even think that this area has anything to do with Russia.

Another way is symbolized to Vernadsky by Prince Alexander Nevsky, who first fought both West and Mongols and later had to collaborate with Mongols in order to repel Western invasions (by Teuton knights, Poles and Lithuanians mainly). It was not a pretty decision and its consequences are still felt but it turned out to be better for Russia than to have anything to do with the West. Funny enough that approximately at the same time yet another ruler got his version of the Western help. I mean Byzantine emperor Alexius IV Angelus who invited Crusaders to help him to return to Byzantine throne. You probably remember what did they do instead.

[RusIvan]

YOU WILL NEVER ANTAGONIZE US ANY MORE!!!
POLAND LITHUANIA AND UKRAINE TOGETHER AGAIN!==

:)). Dear m_68 I presume that you explain to your ukranian and lithvinian "friens" that thier land belong to Poland same way as you explain it to us on thise thread.
And you antogonize them by yourself for sure:))).

[RusIvan]

It is known fact that the way of Alexander Nevsky saved Russia and brought her to greatness later.
But way of Daniil Galitskii brought Chervonnaya Rus (his duchery) to Galtchina where they forget that they were russians once.

[jb6]

Danzig anyone?

[jb6]

For such like you, even underlining and emphasizing with huge letters gives no results.

Oh words work well enough when they don't combine to create pure revisionist BS, like all of yours. Obviously you've got a really bad historic education and victim mentality like the arabs.

[jb6]

Enough! You undestood nothing or pretend it. Your Russia is over. Nobody wants to be a friend of them or to be in aliiance, etc. ...except for you, Mr jb6

Yup, except India, China, S.Korea, Japan, Indonesia, Malaysia, Greece, Yugoslavia, Armenia, Kazakstan, Belaruss, Germany, France, Italy, Hungary, Israel and a few others. Again, you live in a fantasy reality, but it works for you, so why rattle your cage?

[sergey1973]

You know folks what's going on here--the competition of Russian and Polish Chauvinisms and the truth is lost.

First, the talk that Poland (Polish-Lithuanian Kingdom) "never took foreign land" is ridiculous. Poland as any other power in history took from the weak, conquered it and joined it to its own territory. I.e. Polish king Kazimir took by force the City of L'vov in early 14th century and Lithuanian Prince took Kiev sometime in 1356. The Polish Lithuanian Union started I believe in 1389 when Polish King Kazimir and Lithuanian Prince Jagailo married their children. Then the union was formalized in Lublin 1569. The Moscow Kingdom later renamed Russian Empire did exactly the same thing--expanded its territory often through force or by other means.

Polish-Lithuanian and Russian rivalry over the present land of Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania dates back to 14th century after Poland-Lithuania expanded its dominion over the land of old Kievan Rus. For instance, Kiev (or Kyiv in Ukrainian) originally was a capital of medieval confederations of kingdoms called Kievan Rus in 9-13th Centuries which was predecessor to Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. Then it was conquered by Mongol-Tatar kingdom in mid 13th century. Then Poland-Lithuania took it in 14th Century. Roughtly mid 14-th to mid 17th centuries was a peak for Poland-Lithuania when it was from Baltic to Black Sea. In 15th Century Grand Duchy of Moscow began its own major expansion. In 1471-1478 Moscow Duke Ivan III (the Great) defeated Novgorod Republic (modern Russian North from Novgorod to Ural Mountains) and make it part of Moscow Rus (Grand Duchy of Moscow)--the Future Russian Empire. In 1648, Ukrainian Cossack leader (hetman) Bogdan Khmelnitski started uprising against Polish-Lithuanian Rule in present Left Bank Ukraine. The uprising was bloody and he asked for help from Moscow Ruler (Czar) Fedor for help. Khmelnitski thought that under 1654 arrangement Ukraine will become independent under Moscow Protectorate, however, Moscow had different plans and gradually ended sovereignty of Ukraine about century later.

Definitely Russia/USSR and Nazi Germany became temporary allies in 1939-1941 when they carved up post WWI Poland and Baltic States between themselves. It's shameful Period for Both Nazi Germany and Russia/USSR. However, on June 22, 1941 Germany attacked USSR and 4 year war ensued in which nearly 30,000,000 Russian/Soviet Citizens perished.

Simply speaking--the Polish dreams of Polish-Lithuanian kingdom restored in any way in its historically largest form, or Russian government dream of Restoring USSR/Russian Empire are dangerous fantasies that should be forever "BURIED". Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania are now separate countries and they should respect each other borders (however, they come into existence historically).

[jb6]

I'll say it this way: 1. true, in the issue of Poland they were allied but they were not allies. There is a fine difference. Here is the history of the matter. In 1937 Stalin sent envoys to Britian and France asking to form a triumvirate alliance to hedge in the Germans. Britian and France, in a pacifist mood, refused, hoping that Stalin and Hitler would just kill each other off. Eventually that was inevitable. But, having given Hitler the green light, Britian and France gave Stalin no other choice but to form a temporary alliance with the Nazis to try and win time to prepare. Molotov was told to win Stalin 2 years, he got 1.

To support this issue one needs to look at two things: First: Soviet main armies were all positioned near the border, not in defensive orientations but in jump off positions for a quick move to the border and offensive operations. Secondly, one of the key reasons for German success was the very low numbers of T34/76 (about 4-500) and KV1s (about 200) that had been produced and fielded. By 1942 the Germans were finding themselves heavily blocked by masses of T-34/76. They even developed several battalions of German T-34s from captured equipment. By 1943 and on wards, with the Staligrad counter offensives: Mars and Uranus, the Germans were heavily outnumbered and out gunned in Medium and for a while (until the introduction of the Panther and especially the Tiger I in quantities) Heavy tanks.

Most Soviet tanks of the day were the T-28s, a light machinegun or very light gun tank that was basically worthless against the Wehremacht Mark IIICs and better, especially the Mark IVs that were coming out in production. They were also easily eaten up by the Panzerfausts.

So if one wants the ultimate blame for WW2 being what it was, one should put it where it truly is deserved, on the shoulders of Chamberlin and his French counterpart. The tragic events of 1939-1945 and beyond began when Hitler marched his army (and he marched them 3 or 4 times, busing them out during the night to re-march again) into the Rhineland and the British/French ran away.

[jb6]

Silesia did belong to Poland on and off, it also belonged to Bohemia, Bavaria, Austro-Hungary, Prussia and Germany.

East Prussia, the Teutonic Kingdom (which exterminated the original Prussians and then took their name) was conquered by the Poles and made a vassal and then a territory of Poland's until the first Partition.

[jb6]

That's because most Ukrainians didn't want independence, they didn't want the Bolshaviks, they wanted the White Forces and a constitutional monarchy. Of course they and all Russian peoples got nothing of the sort and there are many many reasons for it, to include lots of gold and cash that western oligarchs poured into Lenin's coffers.

[jb6]

He BECAME the ENEMY when he dared to attack Soviet Republic. Is that true?

He was always an enemy, 1939-1941 was a marriage of convinience. Blame it on the British and French for it's forging.

[RusIvan]

or Russian government dream of Restoring USSR/Russian Empire are dangerous fantasies that should be forever "BURIED". ==

Serge you may be confident about russian goverment that days of Empire is over.
If anyone noticed it was Rusian Federation which declared Independence from USSR and by this act destroyed soviet empire (and fred all other nations like ukranians, bellorussians and so on).

[jb6]

Polish hatred (as seen by many though not all) will be a problem for quite some time, especially since they have a bigger form to work in. The best thing Russia can do is blockade all trade with Poland. Continue building the northern European gas/oil line, especially through the neutral waters and cut the dependence of shipping through Poland (and their fat tariffs off of it too).