Vietnam sparks war of words on election panel

Star-Telegram.com ^ | March 20, 2005 | Chris Vaughn

[Interesting Times]

LUBBOCK - • Provocative debate on the Vietnam War's effect on the 2004 election wraps up a three-day conference at Texas Tech.

"The Tactical Nuclear Weapons Option in Vietnam" was informative. "Re-education and Its Aftermath" was moving.

Then there was "The Vietnam War and the Election Year," as seen and told by former members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War and members of the Swift boat Veterans for Truth.

This was some academic conference.

"Welcome to the steel-cage death match" portion of the 5th Triennial Vietnam Symposium, remarked one panelist.

The Vietnam Center at Texas Tech University saved its most controversial panels for last at its three-day conference in Lubbock, with much of the discord centered on Sen. John Kerry, the unsuccessful Democratic presidential candidate.

"John Kerry is the only swift boater who butchered women and children in a boat," said B.G. Burkett, a Dallas stockbroker and Army veteran involved in the Swift boats group. "When he says he's a war criminal, he's absolutely right. He is a war criminal."

Then consider this comment made about the Swift boat group: "They have played fast and loose with the truth, acting as an Orwellian ministry of misinformation, taking half-truths and statements out of context, spreading libelous lies," said Terry DuBose, an Army veteran and former leader of the VVAW.

Among the Kerry and VVAW bashers were Jerome Corsi, co-author of Unfit for Command; Larry Bailey, president of the Vietnam Veterans for Truth and a retired Navy captain; Burkett, author of Stolen Valor and a national expert on outing phony veterans; and Scott Swett, Webmaster of swiftvets.com.

On the other side of the issue gathered former VVAW leaders DuBose, Alex Primm, Bill Hager and Nancy Miller Saunders, as well as Gerald Nicosia, who authored Home to War, about the veterans' anti-war movement.

In front of the largest crowd at any panels during the conference, the two groups proved that the Vietnam War generates every bit of emotion that it did 35 years ago and that Kerry, at least for many veterans, remains a lightning rod on the order of Jane Fonda for his anti-war activities and statements in the early 1970s.

The Swift Boat supporters said Kerry's statements about atrocities alleged to have been committed in Vietnam and his involvement in the VVAW -- a group full of "radicals, leftists and communists," Corsi said -- made him unsuitable for the White House.

"John Kerry was trying to convince the American people we were committing war crimes on a daily basis, up and down the chain of command," Corsi said.

Burkett called the VVAW "ragtags" who helped cement the image of Vietnam veterans as disaffected, unemployed, longhaired radicals. He said Vietnam veterans "were the most successful veterans in the history of the country" and blamed Kerry and the VVAW for bringing an end to a war that could have been won.

"They didn't elect [George] McGovern, but they did change the course of the war," he said, a view that many historians would disagree with strongly. The VVAW's activities and marches took place in the early 1970s, when the United States had already begun its troop pullout and public opinion had largely turned against the war.

The VVAW backers asserted that Kerry and other anti-war veterans never criticized U.S. troops or called them war criminals. Several said the Swift Boat veterans "cherry-picked" comments and took them out of context and that it consistently disavowed violence and communism.

"Our arguments focused on U.S. government policies," Primm said, which he said is very different than blaming individual troops.

Hager defended his right to be against the war and said he strongly resented his service in the Marine Corps in Vietnam being "smeared" by the Swift boat veterans.

"We see ourselves as patriots, standing up for what America is about," he said. "We see ourselves as honorable." He then accused them of the same heavy-handed tactics of the Nixon administration, which spied on thousands of American citizens and was brought down by the Watergate scandal.

"They're a throwback to the Nixon era," he said of the Swift boat veterans.

About the only issue on which both sides found common ground was that Kerry brought the attention on himself.

Burkett even dropped this bombshell: "I personally think George Bush is a draft dodger. But George Bush never lied about Vietnam. John Kerry did."

The Vietnam Center has always been unconventional in its approaches to symposiums, unafraid of presentations by nonacademics. That doesn't mean that the center director, James Reckner, wasn't apprehensive about Saturday's panels.

Despite repeated admonitions about maintaining civility, Reckner -- a two-tour Vietnam veteran and self-described "hard-core conservative" -- said he was disappointed by the behavior of the Swift boat veterans. Bailey, for example, irritably interrupted the daughter of a soldier killed in Vietnam and told DuBose to "sit down" and refused to hear his question.

Reckner said he found Bailey's actions "totally unacceptable. There can't be a dialogue without questions and answers. You can't answer questions just from your friends."

[Interesting Times]

This is sloppy, dishonest reporting. First of all, no Swift vets were at the conference. Captain Larry Bailey's display of irritation at the woman claiming to be the daughter of a Vietnam KIA occurred after she filibustered for about 90 seconds on why it was wrong and hurtful for the vets who opposed Kerry (but not, of course, for the VVAW) to express their views at the symposium. Dr. Reckner's remarks are disappointing, assuming he was accurately quoted, since we had answered at least 4 questions from the VVAW contingent before Larry Bailey refused to call on one loud guy who was standing up and insisting to be heard.

My favorite exchange came when a VVAW guy raised his hand, identified himself as Scott Camil, and asked a question of B.G. Burkett.

Burkett: "You're the guy who wanted to kill half a dozen U.S. Senators, right?"

Camil: "Uh, yeah..."

[Interesting Times]

"Welcome to the steel-cage death match" portion of the 5th Triennial Vietnam Symposium, remarked one panelist.

That was my opening line...

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

"The VVAW backers asserted that Kerry and other anti-war veterans
never criticized U.S. troops or called them war criminals."






Col. Geo. "Bud" Day Medal of Honor Vietnam POW 1967-1973 USMC - USA Attorney 1949-2004-

Dear Joe: The major issue in the Swiftboat stories is, and always has been,
what John Kerry did in 1971 after he returned from Vietnam.

Kerry cast a long dark shadow over all Vietnam Veterans with his outright perjury before the Senate concerning atrocities in Vietnam. His stories to the Senate committee were absolute lies.. fabrications.. perjury.. fantasies, with NO substance. That dark shadow has defamed the entire Vietnam War veteran population, and gave "Aid and Comfort" to our enemies..the Vietnamese Communists. Kerry's stories were outright fabrications, and were intended for political gain with the radical left..McGovern, Teddy and Bobby Kennedy followers, Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, and the radical left who fantasized that George McGovern was going to be elected in 1972. Little wonder that returning soldiers from Vietnam were spit upon and castigated as "baby killers".
A returned war hero said so.

Kerry cut a dashing figure as a war hero, lots of medals, and returned home because of multiple war wounds..even a silver star. His Senate testimony confirmed what every hippie had been chanting on the streets.."Hey hey LBJ..How many kids did you kill today"?????
He obviously was running for political office in 1971.

Until Lt. John O' Neil, himself a Swifboat commander, spoke out before the 1972 elections against Kerry's outright deceptions, there was no one from the Swiftboat scene that could contradict Kerry's self serving lies.

I was a POW of the Vietnamese in Hanoi in 1971, and I am aware that the testimony of John Kerry, the actions of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden, and the radical left; all caused the commies to conclude that if they hung on..they would win. North Vietnamese General Bui Tin commented that every day the Communist leadership listened to world news over the radio to follow the growth of the anti-war movement. Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and Ramsey Clark gave them confidence to hold in the face of battlefield reverses.
The guts of it was that propaganda from the anti-war group was part of their combat strategy.

While the Commies were hanging on, innumerable U.S. Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Air Foce members were being killed in combat.

Every battle wound to Americans after Kerry's misdirected testimony is related to Kerry's untruthfulness.

John Kerry contributed to every one of these deaths with his lies about U.S. atrocities in Vietnam.



He likewise defamed the U.S. with our allies and supporters.

His conduct also extended the imprisonment of the Vietnam Prisoners of War, of which I was one.

I am certain of at least one POW death after his testimony,
which might have been prevented with an earlier release of the POWs.

I draw a direct comparison of General Benedict Arnold of the Revolutionary War, to Lieutenant John Kerry. Both went off to war, fought, and then turned against their country. General Arnold crossed over to the British for money and position. John Kerry crossed over to the Vietnamese with his assistance to the anti-war movement, and his direct liason with the Vietnamese diplomats in Paris.
His reward. Political gain. Senator..United States.

“Without question,
we were held captive longer
because of the anti-war people,
the Kerrys, the Fondas and Haydens,
the names we knew over there -
they encouraged the enemy to hang on.”
Excerpt from “Stolen Honor” website
- Leo Thorsness
Former Vietnam POW

[zot]

Thanks for the ping -- and the explanation of dishonest reporting.

[Howlin]

This looks HARD.....is there gonna be a test "after?"

Thanks for the ping.

[Interesting Times]

Here's Larry Bailey's letter to Chris Vaughn, author of this article.

-----

Chris,

Regarding your article yesterday, do you know why I interrupted the lady? Of COURSE you do! It was a Q & A session, and my entire presentation (including Q & A) was only twelve minutes, and that woman, whose personal efforts to honor mothers I applaud and whom I was trying to help, WOULD NOT ASK A QUESTION, even after I asked her what her question was. She just kept ranting about our inability to forgive and forget. Then I called on a personal friend who started preaching his own sermon without asking a question, and I cut him off, too. I was aware of the VVAW guy holding his hand up and was just about to call on him when he stood up and started shouting out his comment without being called on. Of COURSE I refused to recognize him! What sort of masochist do you think I am?

I find it ironic that DuBose could express himself as discourteously as he pleased, but when I responded forcefully, I'm the bad guy. I was very disappointed in Dr. Reckner's comments at the time and in your characterization of the event. Civil is as civil does, and DuBose and the lady refused to play by civil rules and suffered the consequences. I am a person who believes in courtesy, and I expect others to abide by certain standards of courtesy. You saw what happened, and that's why I'm disappointed that you chose to end your otherwise-well-written piece with an inaccurate twist. You saw, if you were paying attention, DuBose leaping to his feet and heard him shouting out his commentary. What you reported was my response to two initiating events--hardly an even-handed journalistic approach. But I'm used to that...

And I'd like to make a point--there wasn't a single Swift Boat person at the meeting. Even Jerry Corsi, who was the telephone speaker, was not a part of that organization.

Further, considering the numbers of VVAW people in the audience, they had more than their fair share of Q & A recognition. Scott Swett and Jug Burkett called on several of them.

Regards,
Larry Bailey

[Fedora]

Thanks for the corrections to the reporting.

That exchange between Burkett and Camil is classic :-)

[R. Scott]

The VVAW backers asserted that Kerry and other anti-war veterans never criticized U.S. troops or called them war criminals.

Ah…yea…right. And Hanoi Jane never vacationed in the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.

[Soaring Feather]

bump!!!!

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

September 6, 2004 -- **BREAKING** In Yesterday's Lies: Steve Pitkin and the Winter Soldiers, Scott Swett tells the story of a former VVAW member and participant in the Winter Soldier Investigation who states that John Kerry and others pressured him to give false testimony about American atrocities in Vietnam.

After more than 33 years, Pitkin is the first Winter Soldier "witness" to file a legal affadavit regarding that event...


AFFIDAVIT OF STEVEN J. PITKIN combat veteran of the Vietnam War (Kerry pressured him to give false Winter Soldier testimony)
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=PitkinAff

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

"Phony Vietnam veterans alleged in books
Guenter Lewy's 1978 book America in Vietnam (pages 316-317) and B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley's Stolen Valor (Verity Press, Inc., Dallas, Texas)(pages 113, 131-137) contain similar information about alleged flaws in Lane's book. Neither book, however, refutes any of the testimony given during the Winter Soldier Investigation.

Lawyer and leftist activist Mark Lane was one of the organizers of Winter Soldier. In 1970, Lane had published a book called Conversations With Americans purporting to be interviews with Vietnam veterans about war crimes, containing Vietnam tales of atrocities. Reporter Neil Sheehan showed some interviewed in Lane's book had never served in Vietnam and others had not been in the situations they described. Lane admitted he did not check military records, as confirmation of details was not relevant. Lane later confirmed these militarty records.
The following are often falsely listed as being participants in Winter Soldier, but were actually in Lane's book instead. This confusion is probably due to Stolen Valor having an explanation of Lane's history within the section on Winter Soldier.
Chuck Onan, stock room clerk in Beaufort, S.C.
Michael Schneider, deserted in Europe and deserted again in the USA.
Terry Whitmore, was in an unpopulated area of Vietnam.
Garry Gianninoto, medical corpsman at battalion headquarters.
VVAW leader and Winter Soldier co-organizer Al Hubbard lied about being an officer, and sustaining war injuries - but he never testified at Winter Soldier .
According to the investigative work of Burkett, Lewy and others, there were many imposters, liars, and plain nutjobs who infiltrated the ranks of the anti-war movement, and, in some cases, testified to war crimes and atrocities that never occurred in order to get attention, sympathy, and, in one documented case, medals and honors."

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/W/Winter-Soldier-Investigation.htm



"...At the time, Kerry was serving as the point man for the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. The president of the organization was Al Hubbard, who claimed to be an Air Force captain who was severely injured during his service in Vietnam.

It turned out Hubbard was a sergeant who never served in Vietnam.

He did, however, as Kerry knew, serve the communist cause with great enthusiasm and distinction – making propaganda trips to Hanoi paid for by the Communist Party USA. "

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39982

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

CPAC 2005: 02/18/05 Courage Under Fire Award (Story AND Audio Link)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1347932/posts

Rear ADM. Roy Hoffman asking the questions
that Main Stream Media should be asking!

Both Right and Left!

02/18/05

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1346397/posts

"Mary Beth Cahill getting it for referring to"discredited" swiftboat vets.
Challenged anyone to come up with anything that has been "discredited"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1346397/posts?page=113#113

Tainted media [Kerry's 'honorable' discharge?]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1345874/posts

"Some of the public have begun to wake up but more need to do so.
Many in the media also need to wake up to what they are doing, or failing to do,
when their politics taints their work."

TownHall.com ^ | February 18, 2005 | Thomas Sowell

[E.G.C.]

BTTT!!!!!!

[Interesting Times]

Thanks for the ping -- and the explanation of dishonest reporting.

The absurd claims made by the VVAW crew were also overlooked by Vaughn. One VVAW member insisted that I had selectively quoted FBI files to make him look bad. I pointed out that the FBI files on WinterSoldier.com were copied directly from the CDs provided by the FBI, and asked what he was talking about. It turns out he was unhappy about a web site called "KerrysTreason.com" and hadn't bothered to ascertain that neither the Swift Vets nor I had anything to do with that site. I'm sure the many academics in the room were impressed with his fact-checking...

But of course, you'd never learn about this from the article.

[E.G.C.]

BTTT!!!!!!

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

"Ah…yea…right. And Hanoi Jane never vacationed in the Democratic Republic of Vietnam."


"Her publisher, Random House, will not release the book to reporters or critics in advance,
and Ms. Fonda will not give interviews
before her appearance on "60 Minutes,"
scheduled for April 3."

Hanoi Jane's imminent autobiography

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1360385/posts

60 Minutes ALERT!

Anybody think Dan Rather will do the interview?

Rather, 73, is returning to full-time reporting for CBS’s “60 Minutes” broadcasts.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7137959/?GT1=6305

[MeekOneGOP]

My thanks to BulletBobCo for the concept of this
pic and to Conspiracy Guy for the captions!

[R. Scott]

I have to wait 13 whole days to see it?
No – wait – I have to trim my beard that day. Guess I’ll have to miss it.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

I don't get CBS, NBC or ABC at all.

I only keep FOX for Ollie North.