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Kerry Loves the Mainstream Media......And has contempt for the American people.
The Weekly Standard ^
| 3/21/05 edition
| P.J. O'Rourke
Posted on 03/11/2005 9:59:44 PM PST by hole_n_one
Kerry Loves the Mainstream Media
From the March 21, 2005 issue: . . . And has contempt for the American people.
by P.J. O'Rourke
03/21/2005, Volume 010, Issue 25

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JOHN KERRY EFFECTIVELY ENDED HIS political career on February 28, 2005, during a little-noticed event at the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library in Boston. Senator Kerry was being presented with the library's "Distinguished American Award"--a bust of John Kennedy. The artist had portrayed JFK with head slightly tilted. The bust looked puzzled. The award was presented by Senator Ted Kennedy, who phoned it in. Supposedly Kennedy was rushing to catch the "last plane out of Logan" to get to Washington for a vital debate on bankruptcy reform legislation. Why the other senator from Massachusetts wasn't vital was not explained. Nor was it explained why any Democrat was vital to a debate on legislation that was simply to be passed by the Republican majority and signed by the Republican president.
Paul Kirk, chairman of the Kennedy library, former Ted Kennedy staffer, and head of the DNC back when Kennedys mattered, introduced Kennedy's disembodied voice. Kennedy praised Kerry's "passion for the value of politics" and "practice of the politics of values." (Where is Ted Sorenson when you need him?) Kennedy did his best to laud Kerry's thin legislative record: "a key voice on arms control." He added, "I can't wait for Kerry in oh-eight" and suggested this as a bumpersticker.
The rest of the evening was devoted to "A Conversation with Senator John F. Kerry." Acting as interlocutor was Boston Globe columnist Thomas Oliphant, who simpered and fidgeted and compared Kerry to Adlai Stevenson.
Addressing the audience of tame Democrats, Kerry explained his defeat. "There has been," he said, "a profound and negative change in the relationship of America's media with the American people. . . . If 77 percent of the people who voted for George Bush on Election Day believed weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq--as they did--and 77 percent of the people who voted for him believed that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11--as they did--then something has happened in the way in which we are talking to each other and who is arbitrating the truth in American politics. . . . When fear is dominating the discussion and when there are false choices presented and there is no arbitrator, we have a problem."
America is not doctrinaire. It's hard for an American politician to come up with an ideological position that is permanently unforgivable. Henry Wallace never quite managed, or George Wallace either. But Kerry's done it. American free speech needs to be submitted to arbitration because Americans aren't smart enough to have a First Amendment, and you can tell this is so, because Americans weren't smart enough to vote for John Kerry.
"We learned," Kerry continued, "that the mainstream media, over the course of the last year, did a pretty good job of discerning. But there's a subculture and a sub-media that talks and keeps things going for entertainment purposes rather than for the flow of information. And that has a profound impact and undermines what we call the mainstream media of the country. And so the decision-making ability of the American electorate has been profoundly impacted as a consequence of that. The question is, what are we going to do about it?"
Kerry is hilariously bad as a demagogue. A low subculture and its inferior sub-media are thwarting the will of the sacred mainstream? His small sparks of malice were blurred by vast, damp clouds of Kerry-fog--murky budget critiques, hazy pronouncements on Social Security and health care, foreign policy vaporings, leaden anecdotes, and an obscure protest that 45 percent of West Virginians lack sewer hook-ups. Kerry was led back to the main point by a question from the audience: "How [do we] stop the media from creating and perpetuating the divisive red state/blue state situation?"
Kerry looked sympathetically at Oliphant--a representative of the mainstream media--and answered as if Oliphant himself had asked the question. "Tom, I swear I don't have the answer to that. And I'm looking for it just like everybody else is. . . . I think part of what we have to do is have an impact on the economics. The corporatization of the media in America has taken away some of the willingness of the media to do the great muckraking they used to do and to be the accountability folks they used to be. And so you have so many different media outlets that are just bottom-line, and they go where the ratings tell them to go. And there's a top-down hierarchical administration of what they'll go after and what they'll do, and it's driven by the economics more than anything. I think if we were to change the economics a little bit through grassroots effort, then you might begin to see a shift." Kerry did not elaborate on the nature of this grassroots effort. Do we smash the windows of Rupert Murdoch's headquarters? Do we nationalize the Drudge Report? "Now, beyond that," Kerry said, shrugging and pausing, "an epiphany of some kind?" Or do we just get in touch with our inner mainstream?
Kerry smirked at Oliphant. Oliphant smirked back. Kerry went on: "A lot of the mainstream media were very responsible during the campaign. They tried to put out a balanced view, and they did show what they thought to be the truth in certain situations of attack. . . . But it never penetrated. And when you look at the statistics and understand that about 80 percent of America gets 100 percent of its news from television, and a great deal of that news comes from either MTV, Jon Stewart, Bill Maher, Jay Leno, David Letterman, you begin to see the size of the challenge." (Those were all Kerry supporters or, at any rate, Bush opponents, but this thought--if any thinking occurred--didn't slow Kerry.) "And so I don't have the total answer. I just know it's something that we've really got to grapple with."
Oliphant responded, in a responsible mainstream media way, saying, "Going back to the economics of it, though, isn't this why God created the Sherman and Clayton acts?"
You never know what's going to set someone off. Maybe the mention of antitrust legislation evoked subliminal images of unfair competition, tipping the balance of Kerry's mind and causing miswired synapses to fire. Suddenly he went from having some wrong opinions and even a few wicked thoughts to having--how does one put this in the mainstream media?--special needs.
"That's something," Kerry said, "that a president with a veto pen and with the right of proposal can achieve. But in this particular dynamic don't hold your breath. There ain't going to be no effort to change that or restore the Fairness Doctrine. This all began, incidentally, when the Fairness Doctrine ended. You would have had a dramatic change in the discussion in this country had we still had a Fairness Doctrine in the course of the last campaign. But the absence of a Fairness Doctrine and the corporatization of the media has changed dramatically the ability of and the filter through which certain kinds of information get to the American people . . . "
Kerry kept talking. But it seems cruel to transcribe more. It would be like taking sightseers to Bedlam--or to an '08 Democratic primary.
P.J. O'Rourke is a contributing editor to The Weekly Standard and author, most recently, of Peace Kills (Atlantic Monthly Press). |
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TOPICS: Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: insulttointelligence; kerry; kerrydefeat; lyingtraitor; media; msm; oliphant; pjorourke; soreloserman; swiftiesdontstop
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To: hole_n_one
You can bet that the next time the Democrats are in power, they will be coming after talk radio and those of us in the Pajamahadeen.
This is also proof that the MSM is toast because of their 40 years of bias reporting
2
posted on
03/11/2005 10:10:07 PM PST
by
MJY1288
(Authoritarian rule is not the wave of the future; it is the last gasp of a discredited past.)
To: hole_n_one
To: hole_n_one
4
posted on
03/11/2005 10:14:29 PM PST
by
Peach
(The Clintons pardoned more terrorists than they ever captured or killed.)
To: hole_n_one
What the heck is he worrying at sewer hook-ups. I bet he thinks the sewer in running out in the streets. Heck I live in the COUNTRY and don't need no fancy sewer hook ups. That is what a septic tank is for. Dumb man. Now I have city water.(cause the well is a pain to keep running otherwise I would not have hooked up to it) Don't need mp city sewer hook-up thank you. See Mine is already paid for. No monthly fee or tax. Leave me alone. I don't want your sewer hook up.
5
posted on
03/11/2005 10:16:14 PM PST
by
therut
To: hole_n_one; darkwing104; txradioguy; Old Sarge; PFC_Tribble; armyman; Arrowhead1952; Long Cut; ...
"..Addressing the audience of tame Democrats, Kerry explained his defeat. "There has been," he said, "a profound and negative change in the relationship of America's media with the American people. . . . If 77 percent of the people who voted for George Bush on Election Day believed weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq--as they did--and 77 percent of the people who voted for him believed that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11--as they did--then something has happened in the way in which we are talking to each other and who is arbitrating the truth in American politics. . . . When fear is dominating the discussion and when there are false choices presented and there is no arbitrator, we have a problem..."
And Hanoi Kerry STILL attacks President Bush.
Kerry Trashes Bush in Baghdad Jan '05
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1315333/posts
Kerry: Bush Still Hiding His Guard Records Feb '05
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1341323/posts
Distribute these url's in e-mail, Vet boards, Conservative boards, etc.
EXPOSE HANOI KERRY!
MUST SEE WEBSITE!!!!
http://www.kerrystreason.com/index.html
Full details on these url's!
http://tonkin.spymac.net/hanoikerry1.html
There is a backup site
if the 1st url is unavailable.
http://stophanoikerry.150m.com
6
posted on
03/11/2005 10:19:15 PM PST
by
68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
(Proud to be a lifelong Registered Independent Voter and never bought into following the herd.)
To: hole_n_one
Every time I read or hear something Kerry has said since the election, I get the feeling he's just stringing words together - it makes no sense, in the same way Jesse Jackson makes no sense. It's just a bunch of words - sound and fury, signifying nothing.
7
posted on
03/11/2005 10:19:55 PM PST
by
hsalaw
To: hole_n_one
Just knowing that this jerk almost became President is enough to give any thinking person cold sweats and sleepless nights. Carter was stupid but at least he
believes in the things he does ... Kerry can't possibly believe his own BS, or can he?
And the libs wanted this moron?
8
posted on
03/11/2005 10:24:53 PM PST
by
usgator
To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Man alive, what an ARROGANT elitist. Every time John Kerry opens his mouth, I thank God that George Bush is President..
9
posted on
03/11/2005 10:25:06 PM PST
by
dandelion
To: All
ATTN to the "Move On" FReepers
Do you really want to "Move On" because you are secretly trolls?
Just wondering why you want to "Move On" and give Hanoi Kerry a free pass.
The GOP controlled US Senate has already done that!
10
posted on
03/11/2005 10:28:02 PM PST
by
68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
(Proud to be a lifelong Registered Independent Voter and never bought into following the herd.)
To: MJY1288
Kerry kept talking. But it seems cruel to transcribe more.LOL!!!
As for this...
You can bet that the next time the Democrats are in power, they will be coming after talk radio and those of us in the Pajamahadeen.
The whole time I was reading this, I was thinking, "Hey, he's basically saying that if only the news was still from 6:30 EST on 3 channels he would have won.
Am I wrong?
11
posted on
03/11/2005 10:30:17 PM PST
by
Howlin
(Free the Eason Jordan Tape!!!)
To: dandelion
If 77 percent of the people who voted for George Bush on Election Day believed weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq--as they did--and 77 percent of the people who voted for him believed that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11--as they did--We did?
12
posted on
03/11/2005 10:31:59 PM PST
by
Howlin
(Free the Eason Jordan Tape!!!)
To: hole_n_one
Kerry slips further and further into Sore Loserman II.
13
posted on
03/11/2005 10:32:47 PM PST
by
NRA1995
("Yew jes' go and lay yore hand on a Pittsburgh Steelers fan & Ah think yer gonna fin'lly understand")
To: Howlin
Nope, Your on target. Kerry and his fellow leftist long for the day when they controlled the news. The "Sub-culture" comment was directed at the internet, talk Radio and FOX news
14
posted on
03/11/2005 10:33:29 PM PST
by
MJY1288
(Authoritarian rule is not the wave of the future; it is the last gasp of a discredited past.)
To: Howlin
Oh my gosh, Howlin - he's able to READ MINDS! He truly IS a god!!
If only we had known...
To: hole_n_one
The award was presented by Senator Ted Kennedy, who phoned it in ET Phone Home
16
posted on
03/11/2005 10:37:54 PM PST
by
Mo1
(Question to the Media/Press ... Why are you hiding the Eason Jordan tapes ????)
To: All
Can anyone name 1 so called MAIN Stream Right Wing Media
personality
(we know Russert on tv and Imus on radio from the Left have)
that has asked,
in 2005,
these questions?
"Asked Kerry when he will sign Form 180.
(Even though President Bush signed his Form 180)
Or how could Kerry have a top secret clearance,
and access to US intelligence
WITHOUT revealing ALL his military records to the US Senate
Who in the US Senate has seen ALL of Kerry's military records?
Who, in the US Senate, gave him his top secret clearance?
Or why Kerry is still in the US Senate.
This is in violation of
U.S. Constitution Amendment 14 Sec 3
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html
Or when Kerry will set the record straight
on his false testimony in April 71"
17
posted on
03/11/2005 10:38:08 PM PST
by
68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
(Proud to be a lifelong Registered Independent Voter and never bought into following the herd.)
To: hole_n_one
"There has been," he said, "a profound and negative change in the relationship of America's media with the American people. . . .
18
posted on
03/11/2005 10:40:15 PM PST
by
JoJo Gunn
(More than two lawyers in any Country constitutes a terrorist organization. ©)
To: MJY1288
This is just an unbelieveable statement:
But there's a subculture and a sub-media that talks and keeps things going for entertainment purposes rather than for the flow of information.
What on God's green earth does he mean by that? Us? Chris Matthews? (I'm sure he means Fox News......LOL)
And that has a profound impact and undermines what we call the mainstream media of the country.
He's basically saying that because we DISCUSS news and have opinions, we are getting in the way of the "flow" of information that the MSM "gives us."
And so the decision-making ability of the American electorate has been profoundly impacted as a consequence of that.
Appaently it bothers the hell out of him that we have found a way to make our decisions without being spoon-fed by Uncle Walter.
The question is, what are we going to do about it?"
Implying there's something wrong with it.
19
posted on
03/11/2005 10:43:21 PM PST
by
Howlin
(Free the Eason Jordan Tape!!!)
To: hole_n_one; Peach; dandelion; martin_fierro
"We learned," Kerry continued, "that the mainstream media, over the course of the last year, did a pretty good job of discerning. But there's a subculture and a sub-media that talks and keeps things going for entertainment purposes rather than for the flow of information. And that has a profound impact and undermines what we call the mainstream media of the country.
______
Listen to this pompous *sshole Kerry!
****
a subculture and a sub-media -- "It was amazing Thursday to watch the documents story go from FreeRepublic.com, a bastion of right-wing lunacy, to Drudge to the mainstream media in less than 12 hours," said Jim Jordan, a strategist for independent Democratic groups opposed to Bush, and Kerry's former campaign manager.
"That's not to say the documents didn't deserve examination."But apparently the entire thing was cooked up by a couple of amateurs on Free Republic. The speed with which it moved was breathtaking.
LOL.
20
posted on
03/11/2005 10:44:16 PM PST
by
beyond the sea
(Colonial Script........... or nationalize The Federal Bank..)
To: dandelion
I would personally like to HORSEWHIP every single conservative I know who did not vote for George Bush in November!
THIS MAN COULD HAVE BEEN PRESIDENT!!!!!
21
posted on
03/11/2005 10:44:29 PM PST
by
Howlin
(Free the Eason Jordan Tape!!!)
To: hole_n_one
My intuition tells me that John Kerry and Joseph Goebbles would have hit it off bigtime.
22
posted on
03/11/2005 10:44:43 PM PST
by
SpaceBar
To: Mo1
Kerry looked sympathetically at Oliphant....Kerry smirked at Oliphant. Oliphant smirked back...I'm suddenly reminded of the song The look of love by Sergio Mendez and Brazil '66.
To: hole_n_one
Psycho-babble and double speak.
"They tried to put out a balanced view, and they did show what they thought to be the truth in certain situations of attack...But it never penetrated."
What truly penetrated were Kerry's words. There were debates, commercials, talkshow appearances, etc. The losing presidential candidate had ample opportunity to tell all of America why we should vote for him. His message resonated. We listened, and decided.....that he did not represent the interests and values of the majority of Americans. Not that I ever entertained the idea of voting for him, but I do know that there were undecided voters.
In typical fashion Kerry tries to dismiss the intelligence of Americans, but rather suggests that we were duped by a so called "subculture", and "sub-media".
Kerry is delusional, and I wouldn't be surprised if he consults his mirror every morning and asks "who's the fairest of them all?"
24
posted on
03/11/2005 10:49:10 PM PST
by
This Just In
((In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king))
To: Howlin
I'm telling ya that the Democrats have every intention of muzzling us. They tried like hell to shut Rush Limbaugh up, Clinton even blamed Rush for the OKC bombing.
Watch for the Democrats to use CFR as a tool for shutting down websites like FR and others. In my mind there is no doubt that the Web is the future for getting the news and scrutinizing it.
25
posted on
03/11/2005 10:50:42 PM PST
by
MJY1288
(Authoritarian rule is not the wave of the future; it is the last gasp of a discredited past.)
To: Howlin
It's called Communism, my friend.
26
posted on
03/11/2005 10:53:09 PM PST
by
This Just In
((In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king))
To: MJY1288
27
posted on
03/11/2005 10:57:07 PM PST
by
68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
(Proud to be a lifelong Registered Independent Voter and never bought into following the herd.)
To: This Just In
The mirror is lying, John.
28
posted on
03/11/2005 10:58:24 PM PST
by
This Just In
((In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king))
To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Thanks for the links Tonk
FReegards!
Mike
29
posted on
03/11/2005 10:58:59 PM PST
by
MJY1288
(Authoritarian rule is not the wave of the future; it is the last gasp of a discredited past.)
To: hole_n_one
American free speech needs to be submitted to arbitration because Americans aren't smart enough to have a First Amendment, and you can tell this is so, because Americans weren't smart enough to vote for John Kerry. What a jerk. and a LOOSER !!!!
And I think he was starting to talk about messing with the press with a veto pen. Oh boy , wacko....
30
posted on
03/11/2005 10:59:54 PM PST
by
Deetes
(Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick "))
To: hole_n_one
31
posted on
03/11/2005 11:00:20 PM PST
by
ChadGore
(VISUALIZE 62,041,268 Bush fans.)
To: MJY1288
Addressing the audience of tame Democrats, Kerry explained his defeat. "There has been," he said, "a profound and negative change in the relationship of America's media with the American people. . . . If 77 percent of the people who voted for George Bush on Election Day believed weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq--as they did--
then something has happened in the way in which we are talking to each other and who is arbitrating the truth in American politics. . . . When fear is dominating the discussion and when there are false choices presented and there is no arbitrator, we have a problem."
Butthead Kerry, where did you get those ridiculous numbers that 77% thought that weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq??? you stupid idiot, everybody knows that that is not true, so far very little has been found in Iraq. Maybe your stupid idiots lugheads/lackies/dumbarses think that and are spreading lies, as is usual for demoncrapts, more than likely your ugly wife too!
More for you butthead kerry, this is your idiotic quote "and 77 percent of the people who voted for him believed that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11--as they did--" Are you as stupid as you are protraying yourself in this?? You are a total joke, even worse than your stupid wife! I really hope you see this jon kerry, because You are hated more than you know, besides 77% of the good folks that voted for a real man Mr. G. W. Bush know that Saddam Hussein was NOT responsible for 9/11. Your handlers/lackies are really making a joke out of you and your stupid run for president. HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA We really hope to see ya again in 2008, another devistating loss for the communist/demoncraptic party! Invite the bitch too, not the wife the ugly clilntoon.
32
posted on
03/11/2005 11:02:36 PM PST
by
Ethyl
( W)
To: ChadGore
33
posted on
03/11/2005 11:03:14 PM PST
by
68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
(Proud to be a lifelong Registered Independent Voter and never bought into following the herd.)
To: hole_n_one
Imagine those two fobs on the stage together..........LOL.
34
posted on
03/11/2005 11:04:33 PM PST
by
Howlin
(Free the Eason Jordan Tape!!!)
To: beyond the sea
35
posted on
03/11/2005 11:05:46 PM PST
by
Howlin
(Free the Eason Jordan Tape!!!)
To: Ethyl
One thing I notice about this article is that it has reduced those of us who are posting to it to babbling........LOL....
36
posted on
03/11/2005 11:08:43 PM PST
by
Howlin
(Free the Eason Jordan Tape!!!)
To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
You got to lay the stuff out, not posts, nobody will read them.
37
posted on
03/11/2005 11:08:49 PM PST
by
Ethyl
( W)
To: hole_n_one
Anyone know if Kerry ever served in Vietnam? Just wondering. Thanks.
38
posted on
03/11/2005 11:09:14 PM PST
by
DennisR
(Look around - there are countless observable clues that God exists)
To: DennisR
I'm not sure but it could be seared into my memory if I hear one more time.
39
posted on
03/11/2005 11:13:03 PM PST
by
Deetes
(Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick "))
To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Better question: Why is this Mother F*cker in politics? Get rid of the dude, too stupid to think!
40
posted on
03/11/2005 11:15:29 PM PST
by
Ethyl
( W)
To: Ethyl
"You got to lay the stuff out, not posts, nobody will read them."
Those that want to know the truth will click on the links.
Those that do not will join the FReeper "Move On" crowd.
It's their choice.
I know about Hanoi Kerry,
I was in Viet Nam the same time he was.
41
posted on
03/11/2005 11:16:09 PM PST
by
68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
(Proud to be a lifelong Registered Independent Voter and never bought into following the herd.)
To: hole_n_one
To: Ethyl
"Better question: Why is this Mother F*cker in politics? Get rid of the dude, too stupid to think!"
It's up to the GOP controlled US Senate.
Or do they think President Bush should do their work?
43
posted on
03/11/2005 11:18:51 PM PST
by
68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
(Proud to be a lifelong Registered Independent Voter and never bought into following the herd.)
To: Howlin
If 77 percent of the people who voted for George Bush on Election Day believed weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq--as they did--and 77 percent of the people who voted for him believed that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11--as they did--
We did?
Only in jon kery's mind!
44
posted on
03/11/2005 11:19:22 PM PST
by
Ethyl
( W)
To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Keep on keepin' on, TGYC!
To: Ethyl
"Only in jon kery's mind!"
I don't know about anybody else, but I quit watching
Main Stream Right Wing Media
and listening to Main Stream Right Wing Radio
shortly after Nov 3.
I couldn't understand how the so called
Main Stream Right Wing Media
could say things like
"Senator Kerry was gracious in his concession speech..."
"Senator Kerry was so honorable..."
Etc
46
posted on
03/11/2005 11:22:15 PM PST
by
68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
(Proud to be a lifelong Registered Independent Voter and never bought into following the herd.)
To: Howlin
Now FR is a "subculture, a "sub-media".
LOL.
47
posted on
03/11/2005 11:23:08 PM PST
by
beyond the sea
(Colonial Script........... or nationalize The Federal Bank..)
To: hole_n_one
"Keep on keepin' on, TGYC!"
Thanks I plan on keepin' on!
For those who think I will "give up"
http://www.freerepublic.com/~6869tonkingulfyachtc/
I VOW to the 58,000 + Brothers and Sisters on
The Viet Nam Wall who never came home
and to those who died at home from injuries and
from broken hearts.
"I will do everything I LEGALLY can
to expose Hanoi Kerry once and for all.
I will not tire, I will not falter,
and I will not fail.
I solemnly vow to do all I can to restore your honor
until I give my last breath on earth."
48
posted on
03/11/2005 11:25:58 PM PST
by
68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
(Proud to be a lifelong Registered Independent Voter and never bought into following the herd.)
To: hsalaw
You got that right: sound and fury, signifying NOTHING!
49
posted on
03/11/2005 11:29:14 PM PST
by
CyberAnt
(President Bush: "America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth")
To: hole_n_one
Kerry looked sympathetically at Oliphant....
Kerry smirked at Oliphant. Oliphant smirked back...
I'm suddenly reminded of the song The look of love by Sergio Mendez and Brazil '66
A whole lotta smirkin goin on, kerry and oliphant? Not sure that oliphant is worse than the old lady?
50
posted on
03/11/2005 11:32:51 PM PST
by
Ethyl
( W)
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