ZOT! U.S.: IRA must disband now

Reuters ^ | Wednesday, March 9, 2005

[Youngblood]

However, and again, no one in Ireland, well, Irish_Thatcherite, being the exception perhaps, will credit the economic policies that made the Irish economy take off since the early 90's were simply an implementation of Thatcherism.

Err.. I think its pretty well accepted in Ireland that the Celtic Tiger economy originated in the cutting of spending and corporation (and later income) taxes. Everyone's heard how Charlie Haughey refused to back Fine Gael's mid-80's proposals to try and do something about the economy, yet implemented the same program when he got back in the late 80s. Fine Gael's leader, Alan Dukes, ironically suffered for then supporting Haughey! Perhaps they might not call it "Thatcherism", but then Maggie was never the most popular woman in Ireland after the hunger strikes.

[Youngblood]

Yes, but Ulster was created so that the loyalists, mainly protestants, could remain part of the UK. The IRA is trying to force unification even though the majority in Ulster doesn't want it. That's my point. I'm not even sure that the south wants it either

Northern Ireland was created so that unionists/loyalists could remain part of the UK. Three of the counties and almost half of the landmass of Ulster are part of the Republic. Perhaps you think I'm engaging in semantics here, but having grown up in Donegal, I consider myself just as much of an Ulsterman as Ian Paisley.

I agree with your other point though!

[Irish_Thatcherite]

The IRA consider their army council as the successor to the Second Dail and thus the legitimate government of a 32-county Ireland. Therefore the government of the Republic is illegitimate in their eyes. They still send their TDs to attend the Dail though!

And that is why I go further than simply calling them terrorists - I regard them as traitors!

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Err.. I think its pretty well accepted in Ireland that the Celtic Tiger economy originated in the cutting of spending and corporation (and later income) taxes. Everyone's heard how Charlie Haughey refused to back Fine Gael's mid-80's proposals to try and do something about the economy, yet implemented the same program when he got back in the late 80s. Fine Gael's leader, Alan Dukes, ironically suffered for then supporting Haughey! Perhaps they might not call it "Thatcherism", but then Maggie was never the most popular woman in Ireland after the hunger strikes.

The Tallaght Strategy - Alan Duke is great man for putting Ireland ahead of personal gain!

[kingsurfer]

We used to have signs in pubs that said "No dogs, no blacks, no Irish". This kind of attitude was exacerbated by the IRA in the seventies. It is only in the last decade that these kind of attitudes have disapeared.

From the 70's to the 90's some important dock towns kept a list of all Irish Catholics in the area. To be fair this kind of list was necessary and should be used for suspected Islamic extremists.

[muir_redwoods]

The Irish problem can no longer be addressed with shooting. It's time these two Christian groups to settle this matter peaceably. I think it's obvious that the British must leave the island of Ireland but I'm an American and I have no standing in this question. The people who are there must settle it and stop killing each other.

[kingsurfer]

I think it's obvious that the British must leave the island of Ireland but I'm an American and I have no standing in this question. The people who are there must settle it and stop killing each other.

...........................................................

Britain may well leave at some point but not until they sit down and run their own assembly for a few good years. At the moment they are just wasting time.

TBH I think we could have left 60 years ago. It offers us nothing but trouble. I would gladly swap N. Ireland for Hong Kong or virtually any other colony.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Perhaps the British should have given us the North in 1921 - things would have eventually quietened down, but they didn't, and so we have to deal with the here and now.

There is commonly held view here in Ireland that the Provos are the biggest obstacle to unification, and I think that the British people would probably love to pull out from Northern Ireland, but for fear of the Unionist people.

Irish commentator, Conor Cruise O'Brien has a theory that if Unionists sought a united Ireland, it would pull the rug from under Sinn Fein/IRA (seeing they would no longer have a purpose), and it would be better for Unionists as they would make a much larger voting block in the Oireachteas than they would at Westminster.

[expatpat]

The meaning of "is" is "IS" -- the present, not half a century ago. Furthermore, there may have been signs like that in the 30's, but there weren't in the 50's.

[expatpat]

The Brits are not in N. Ireland because they want to be, but because the majority there asked them to stay and protect them from the wild ones known as the IRA.

[Youngblood]

You're the one who said that anti-Irish Catholic bias in England was provoked by the IRA. I was merely pointing out that it existed long before the 70s. Anti-Irish signs did exist in England until the 50s also. Kingsurfer gave another well-known example of one. Or perhaps I've been lied to...

[Republican Wildcat]

ZOT!

[Youngblood]

I don't know about you IT, but I know very few people from the South who really care about reunificiation. Most just want them all to "get along" up there, and will be happy enough with whatever political arrangement brings a peaceful settlement. But, neither I nor these other people I speak of grew up in the North amid the war and bitterness. A lot of Northern Nationalists seem to have a different view of the Provos role over the past 35 years, seeing them as "defenders" against the loyalists and Brits, while reunificiation is a very real dream for a lot of them. Remember how everyone was baffled and amused when the Tyrone team celebrated winning the All Ireland two years ago by gathering around the Sam Maguire and singing Amhran na bFhiann. There is definitely a big gap between what we in the south think and what Nationalists in the North think. I also think the Unionists have a very irrational fear of a united Ireland, thinking that it would be like 1641 all over again. Conor Cruise has a point, but its not something I can ever see happening. Didn't he fall out with Robert McCartney and the UK Unionist party (such as it was!) over this suggestion? Bottom line is that it doesn't really matter what the southern Irish or the mainland British think - whatever the settlement will be, it has to come from within the six counties.

[expatpat]

I said most of the present bias in 'London' is due to the IRA bombing. There was certainly bias before that (as much anti-Catholic bias as anti-Irish).

However, I lived in England during the 50's, and never ever saw such a sign. I'm half Irish and would have certainly noted it! Remember, the Irish are very good at spinning stories. It's one of the things we love about them, but it does mean a pinch of salt is needed sometimes....

[Youngblood]

I've no reason to doubt that you're telling the truth regarding your experience. I've no reason to doubt others who had different experiences either. We'll have to leave it there I guess...

[GOP_Muzik]

Sorry but this is not true. The IRA and its splinter groups killed twice as many people(2055) during the past 30 years as the protestant paramilitaries(1020)

Sources? I based that statement not from what I was told but from what I've read in both "The Secret History of the IRA" by Ed Moloney (which covers mostly the Provos, but also the "real" IRA and socialists are included) and the excellent but very LONG book "The Dirty War" by Dillon.

This is quite simply nonsense... The GAA has been active in every county in Northern Ireland for the past 80 years at least, and they've held plenty of hurling matches as well as other Gaelic sports during that time. If the man you refer to was sent to Long Kesh it certainly wasn't for organising a hurling league!

Sorry, you are wrong. I'm well aware of the GAA and some of the big matches that went on, even during the troubles. Hell, there are several songs written about them. Jerry told this story in front of about 45 people at the Rossa hurling club in Belfast. There had been a British troop transport bombed on their street (Beechmount or something like that) with an RPG, and Jerry's brother was a suspect (he was only like 10 or 11). There was a pitch down the street where their hurling team practiced and played, and the British soldiers told them it was illegal for them to use this area anymore for hurling, but they did it anyway in defiance of the military and the RUC showed up at his doorstep that evening and hauled him and 2 of his buddies for 4 months at Long Kesh. There is even a mural painted on one of the buildings (at least there was in 1994) that depicts the kids standing in the pitch with their hurlees pointing the way home to England with the words "Slan Abhaile".. on it. I just condensed the story for time's sake.

Finally, there are Protestant as well as Catholic ghettoes in Belfast. You should have gone to the Shankill or Sandy Row on your visit - no different from the Falls Road or the Short Strand except for the religion of the inhabitants. And they could have told you just as many tales of woe about how the government favours the Catholics and discriminates against them. Keep in mind that you only got 1 side of the story from people who have an axe to grind

Ummm, I made it clear that Jerry DIDN't have an axe to grind. Most of his friends are Protestants, even though chances are he would have been kneecapped had he not been of the the best hurlers in Antrim. We did visit Shankill btw, and I don't remember seeing the armored Rovers and British gunners on every street corner, or a 20-story tower that glows green at night from all of the surveillance equipment stuck in the middle of it (I can't remember the name of that tower, but it was creepy). My visit to Derry was much more eye opening. I felt like I was in the deep South in 1958.

The atrocities of the British gov. against the Catholics in the North are well documented and not limited to somebody driving me around in a car showing me slums in Belfast.

[Do not dub me shapka broham]

I've always been of the opinion that unification would, by necessity, lessen the extent and potency of the IRA's influence in the Irish civic sphere.

However, after seeing how thoroughly they've managed to insinuate themselves into every aspect of the political process-especially after the plebiscite ratifying the Good Friday peace accords-I'm beginning to have my doubts.

[slane]

My source for the figures I quoted is the Sutton Index of Deaths on the CAIN website(cain.ulst.ac.uk). It is an impartial tabulation of every death in Northern Ireland related to the Troubles. I don't know where the books you cite gathered facts for their statements but the Sutton Index is the most accurate tabulation of deaths available.

Your longer explanation of the hurling incident makes it clear that your friend was not sent to Long Kesh for organising a hurling league, as you first stated, but for disobeying an order by the British Army not to use a specific location. My point stands.