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Misconceptions about the Big Bang
Scientific American ^ | March 2005 | Charles H. Lineweaver and Tamara M. Davis

Posted on 02/24/2005 3:54:37 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: fortheDeclaration
It is nonsense, when it is not based on facts, but supposition.

And how would you know that it's based on supposition? Have you actually studied the relevant offered evidence?
101 posted on 02/24/2005 4:10:41 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Dimensio
I was just directed to an article talking about a vacuum creating particles.

The only problem was the vacuum contained energy (which is something)

So, unless you can prove that something can come from nothing, it is not science, it is philosophical speculation.

102 posted on 02/24/2005 4:17:16 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: 2ndreconmarine
And the ether theory was discredited with the Michelson-Morley experiment.

Not quite. Michelson-Morley showed ether was not necessary to explain the observations. They never said it didn't exist.

103 posted on 02/24/2005 4:17:32 PM PST by Junior (FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC)
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To: 2ndreconmarine; longshadow; RadioAstronomer; Physicist
The mass doesn't change [for the second observer who is "moving" in the second frame of reference], it is just the observer who sees it differently.

I'm not certain. For the second reference frame that we see zipping away from us, I think their mass increase does have consequences, even locally for them. Not gravitationally, because they don't feel heavier, but with respect to their inertial mass, there must be a difference. (I'm breaking Einstein's principle of equivalence here, so I recognize that I'm in trouble ... yet -- waiving the flag of buffoonery -- I persevere.) If it were a ship, for example, approaching lightspeed, they would soon be unable to accelerate further.

104 posted on 02/24/2005 4:26:08 PM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: fortheDeclaration
It is pretty funny when after 'science' attempts to explain something, one leaves more confused then when one started out!
Either the teaching is bad, or they are simply doing a lot of fancy footwork.

Or possibility #3: the Universe is much, much stranger than it seems like to us.

105 posted on 02/24/2005 4:27:25 PM PST by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: PatrickHenry
If it were a ship, for example, approaching lightspeed, they would soon be unable to accelerate further.

Hint: what is your on-board clock doing as you approach the SOL, WRT a clock on a "stationary" frame of reference?

(think about the answer as it would affect the fact that acceleration is the derivative of velocity WRT time)

106 posted on 02/24/2005 4:35:24 PM PST by longshadow
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To: Junior
Not quite. Michelson-Morley showed ether was not necessary to explain the observations. They never said it didn't exist.

I disagree. The Michelson-Morley experiment was done at opposite ends of the earth's orbit (6 months apart). The results were identical. If there were an ether that light traveled in, then the speed of light would have been different. Hence, the ether theory was discredited. (A good textbook on the subject is "Special Relativity," by Anthony French. MIT Press.

107 posted on 02/24/2005 4:38:54 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine
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To: PatrickHenry
If it were a ship, for example, approaching lightspeed, they would soon be unable to accelerate further...

... in the frame of reference of the first (you called him stationary) observer. In the frame of reference of the ship, they continue to accelerate, or more specifically, they continue to feel the force of acceleration.

108 posted on 02/24/2005 4:41:31 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine
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To: longshadow
Hint: what is your on-board clock doing as you approach the SOL, WRT a clock on a "stationary" frame of reference?

The clock is keeping perfect time, so far as the people on the ship are concerned. But the time dilation is real, as they would learn if they could return home. Similarly, I suspect (but don't know) that their mass increase is real too.

109 posted on 02/24/2005 4:44:14 PM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: PatrickHenry
But the time dilation is real,...

And the effect of this on the acceleration of the spacecraft, as viewed from an external "stationary" oberver, would be???

;-)

110 posted on 02/24/2005 4:51:34 PM PST by longshadow
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To: PatrickHenry
But the time dilation is real, as they would learn if they could return home

Actually, that's a popular misconception. The reason that the time dilation appears real when they return is because the rocket ship is ACCELERATING. If it were not accelerating, then there would not be any effect of difference in aging. Special Relativity is defined by the concept that all inertial reference frames are equivalent. It establishes a series of transformations so that the observations of observers in these different reference frames all measure the same thing. IT DOES NOT APPLY TO ACCELERATING FRAMES OF REFERENCE.

However, the accelerating rocket ship is not an inertial frame, it is an accelerating frame. This problem is handled mathematically by making an infinitely long series of infinitesmal transformations from each inertial reference frame to the next, somewhat faster reference frame.

The long and the short of it is that the result of time dilation, that the astronauts have aged less upon their return, is entirely due to the fact that the rocket ship was accelerating.

111 posted on 02/24/2005 5:01:42 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine
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To: 2ndreconmarine

I'll take your word for it.


112 posted on 02/24/2005 5:24:07 PM PST by Junior (FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC)
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To: fortheDeclaration

It's hard to learn when all the knowledge-obtaining orifices are closed.


113 posted on 02/24/2005 5:51:47 PM PST by furball4paws (It's not the cough that carried him off - it's the coffin they carried him off in (O. Nash -I think))
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To: PatrickHenry
I don't like the balloon analogy. Tough for the layman to get wrap his arms around it. I prefer the dough and raisin deal.

Maybe I'm just hungry though.

114 posted on 02/24/2005 6:06:34 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: longshadow
And the effect of this [But the time dilation is real,...] on the acceleration of the spacecraft, as viewed from an external "stationary" oberver, would be???

I can't think of any, unless they could see the ship's clock, and note that (correcting for the message transit time) it's out of sync with the clock at home (assuming they were once in sync). Also, I suppose if the viewing position were right, they'd see a shortening of the ship's "forward direction" dimension (if you know what I mean). Offhand, I can't think of any visual manifestation of the increase in mass.

115 posted on 02/24/2005 6:25:47 PM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: 2ndreconmarine
Me:
But the time dilation is real, as they would learn if they could return home

You:
Actually, that's a popular misconception. The reason that the time dilation appears real when they return is because the rocket ship is ACCELERATING.

Yes, that's why the ship is the frame that undergoes the time dilation, and not the earth, even though from the ship's viewpoint, the earth is seen to be accelerating away from the earth. But it's really the ship that experiences acceleration.

Nevertheless, even for non-accelerating frames of reference that are in motion with respect to each other, the Lorentz transformation applies to observed differences in time, length, etc. Or so I've always understood. That's how the two frames can make sense of their otherwise incompatible observations.

116 posted on 02/24/2005 6:33:00 PM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: sirchtruth
First there was NOTHING and then NOTHING exploded!

Wrong, wrong, wrong. First there were grapefruits!

117 posted on 02/24/2005 6:41:46 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: PatrickHenry
"biologists still debate the mechanisms and implications (though not the reality) of Darwinism, while much of the public still flounders in pre-Darwinian cluelessness"

Now your talking my language...I've always been clueless as to how "nothing" exploded into everything.

118 posted on 02/24/2005 6:47:51 PM PST by patriot_wes (papal infallibility - a proud tradition since 1869)
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To: Junior
Next time I hear some Luddite say, "In the beginning was nothing, and then it exploded," I'm going to frap him upside the head with this article.

Right, the article is clear, "In the beginning, there were grapefruits".

119 posted on 02/24/2005 6:50:35 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: furball4paws
It's hard to learn when all the knowledge-obtaining orifices are closed.

I think "Dean Wormer said it best in "Animal House": "Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son."

;-)

120 posted on 02/24/2005 7:24:00 PM PST by longshadow
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