Motorcycle Riders May be Allowed to Ride Without a Helmet

WTOP News ^ | February 4, 2005 | unk.

[FoxInSocks]

RICHMOND, Va. - It's been a tough day for highway safety advocates at the Virginia General Assembly.

The House Militia, Police and Public Safety Committee endorsed legislation allowing motorcyclists 21 and older to ride without a helmet. The vote was 12-to-7.

The panel also rejected a series of bills to continue the use of photo monitoring systems at dangerous intersections in six northern Virginia localities and Virginia Beach. Those pilot programs allow police to use cameras to catch drivers who run red lights.

The programs are scheduled to expire July 1.

Another bill rejected by the committee would have expanded photo-red statewide.

The motorcycle helmet bill will be up for a vote on the House floor early next week. Similar bills have failed on close votes on the House floor three years in a row.

[R. Scott]

Oh, yes, the motorcycle guys ~ certainly they should be allowed to do what they wish. However, they should all be required to make a deposit to pay for the body removal when they get hit.

As if a helmet really is going to save so many lives.
The media was great at pushing for the mandatory helmet laws. I had a good friend who was run over by a school bus. The back wheels crushed his pelvis. The bus was making an illegal left turn.
The newspaper story stated that the rider was not wearing a helmet – as if a helmet would have minimized his injuries.
I have been run over by cars on two occasions, and in neither case did my head make contact with the ground. A helmet would not have saved my leg or my arm from injury.

[muawiyah]

Looks like you have that image of an armed officer of the law on every corner burned into your brain ~ and you like it!

Back to basics. The redlight runners exist because there are redlights. The fines exist because people violate the redlight rules.

You can eliminate the whole problem by getting rid of the redlights, and/or the fines, and/or the violators.

If you want traffic control devices, you have to enforce the rules one way or the other. If you don't want such devices, or such rules, you have to take your chances that your fellow man thinks he's much more important than you at an intersection.

The elimination of rules of conduct carries with it a penalty. I do not intend on paying the penalty.

[R. Scott]

But I also think that the insurance companies should be able to have tiered policies.

How would the insurance companies set the higher rates? By “charge what the public will pay”, or based on true effectiveness of helmets in saving lives and reducing the severity of injuries?
My money is on the first option.

[muawiyah]

Then you don't think the motorcycle guys should be allowed to do what they wish?

Your accidents seem to have affected your ability to argue. BTW, school buses have a large blindspot. Stay well away from them.

[brianl703]

"PW county is monoethnic by the local standards."

Why don't you avail yourself of the information available at http://www.city-data.com and see if that's really true or just a mistaken perception you have?

Here, I'll give you some data comparing Manassas City to Fairfax City. This was in 2000:

Races in Manassas:

White Non-Hispanic (66.3%)
Hispanic (15.1%)
Black (12.9%)
Other race (7.9%)
Two or more races (3.3%)
American Indian (0.8%)
Other Asian (0.8%)
Asian Indian (0.7%)
Filipino (0.6%)

Races in Fairfax:

White Non-Hispanic (66.7%)
Hispanic (13.6%)
Other race (6.2%)
Black (5.1%)
Two or more races (3.3%)
Korean (2.9%)
Asian Indian (2.6%)
Chinese (2.0%)
Vietnamese (1.9%)
Other Asian (1.5%)
Filipino (1.1%)
American Indian (0.8%)

[brianl703]

"Even turning my head all the way around would not eliminate it."

Accelerating or slowing slightly will move whatever is in your blind spot out of it.

Convex mirrors also eliminate blind spots, if you take into account that they distort the distances between you and the objects in them, they can be very useful.

[pageonetoo]

Looks like you have that image of an armed officer of the law on every corner burned into your brain ~ and you like it!-

They belong to you...

...I am very much against them! I do like Law and Order. As a matter of fact, I like the SVU and CSI versions, as well!

Your life surely isn't that much at risk, or you are worried so much... that you support all of this "eye in the sky" Bravo Sierra... along with the JBT's!

[brianl703]

"OK, brian, you have your eyes in the back of your head don't you?"

Where did you learn to drive? I'm curious, I really am.

No, one does not need eyes in the back of their head to do a head check if they turn their head and look before initiating a lane change. That is what is called a "head check".

[muawiyah]

"local" = Springfield, not mono-cultural Fairfax City.

My own neighborhood is mostly foreign born and non-Christian.

[muawiyah]

Oh, yes, almost forgot ~ the only reason we have "fines" is in place of imprisonment.

You can easily eliminate the "fines" and still have some jailtime imposed. Bet you'd like that.

[brianl703]

Races in Springfield:

White Non-Hispanic (49.6%)
Hispanic (17.7%)
Black (8.9%)
Other race (7.7%)
Vietnamese (6.2%)
Two or more races (4.6%)
Other Asian (4.3%)
Asian Indian (3.0%)
Korean (2.7%)
Filipino (2.6%)
Chinese (1.6%)
American Indian (0.6%)

[brianl703]

"My own neighborhood is mostly foreign born and non-Christian."

Are they the customers of the dope dealers from DC and MD you said I couldn't understand (more or less) because my neighorhood doesn't have enough foreign-born non-Christians in it?

[killjoy]

You are comparing apples to oranges. Look at a racecourse then look at a city intersection, and look with a critical eye toward uneven surfaces, projections and protrusions into the space where a rider might be thrown. Big, big difference.

Your analogy is like saying because there have been no car/semi accidents at Indy, there should be none in the real world.

So you are saying that neck hyperextension only occurs in street accidents and not in racing accidents? This has nothing to do with what causes the accident. Yes, race tracks are designed to have run-offs and sand traps to protect a rider, but that is a moot point. Racing still involves very violent crashes. What about Alex Barros' 2004 MotoGP Assen crash? What about Nakano's 2004 crash where his tire blew out at 200+mph? Sete Gibernau's 2004 MotoGP crash at Sachsenring? What about Abe & Melandri's 2004 dual high-side crashes at Sachsenring? Alex Barros' Donington MotoGP crash?

This is just a very small list of crashes from last years MotoGP season. All of these crashes were very violent involving multiple contacts between helmets and pavement. Why did all the riders come out of the crashes without neck injuries resulting from their helmet use?

I guess in your mind physics are somehow different on a race track? Your own link states:

7. As a result of (5) and (6), we establish that a tradeoff between head and neck injuries confronts a potential helmet user. Past a critical impact speed to the helmet (13 mph), which is likely to occur in real life accident situations helmet use reduces the severity of head injuries at the expense of increasing the severity of neck injuries.

You are saying this does not apply to racing?

[muawiyah]

We're kind of at the most important interchange on the East Coast, and all of 'em go through here. They stop and eat too, and then it's them and the Canadian snowbirds who do all the redlight running.

We need the cameras to keep track of these people if nothing else, and then when they get stopped for speeding or going the wrong way on a one-way street (a problem for both the dope dealers and the snowbirds), we can collect those traffic fines with an adroit vehicle seizure.

[brianl703]

"My own neighborhood is mostly foreign born and non-Christian."

By the way, since you've been talking about how bad PWC drivers are, I suppose it's fair game then to talk about how bad foreign-born drivers are?

Certain groups of them even think it's culturally acceptable to drink and drive.

[brianl703]

"We need the cameras to keep track of these people if nothing else, and then when they get stopped for speeding or going the wrong way on a one-way street (a problem for both the dope dealers and the snowbirds), we can collect those traffic fines with an adroit vehicle seizure."

Who is going to drive all the way to Canada/Florida/NC/SC etc. to collect the vehicle if they don't pay up?

What if they just deny that they were driving the vehicle?

What if they just take advantage of that Virginia law which says that citations have to be hand-delivered by the officer in order to be valid?

[pageonetoo]

We need the cameras to keep track of these people if nothing else, and then when they get stopped for speeding or going the wrong way on a one-way street (a problem for both the dope dealers and the snowbirds), we can collect those traffic fines with an adroit vehicle seizure.

1984

In 1984, Winston Smith lives in London which is part of the country Oceania. The world is divided into three countries that include the entire globe: Oceania, Eurasia, and Eastasia. Oceania, and both of the others, is a totalitarian society led by Big Brother, which censors everyone’s behavior, even their thoughts. Winston is disgusted with his oppressed life and secretly longs to join the fabled Brotherhood, a supposed group of underground rebels intent on overthrowing the government. Winston meets Julia and they secretly fall in love and have an affair, something which is considered a crime. One day, while walking home, Winston encounters O'Brien, an inner party member, who gives Winston his address. Winston had exchanged glances with O'Brien before and had dreams about him giving him the impression that O'Brien was a member of the Brotherhood. Since Julia hated the party as much as Winston did, they went to O'Brien’s house together where they were introduced into the Brotherhood. O'Brien is actually a faithful member of the Inner-Party and this is actually a trap for Winston, a trap that O'Brien has been cleverly setting for seven years. Winston and Julia are sent to the Ministry of Love which is a sort of rehabilitation center for criminals accused of thoughtcrime. There, Winston was separated from Julia, and tortured until his beliefs coincided with those of the Party. Winston denounces everything he believed him, even his love for Julia, and was released back into the public where he wastes his days at the Chestnut Tree drinking gin. -http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/>

Just call me "Winston", but I would rather have a good Merlot! I haven't made it to the Ministry of Love, yet!

[Smokin' Joe]

Why did all the riders come out of the crashes without neck injuries resulting from their helmet use?

I guess in your mind physics are somehow different on a race track?

I wrote: Look at a racecourse, then look at a city intersection, and look with a critical eye toward uneven surfaces, projections and protrusions into the space where a rider might be thrown. Big, big difference.

While the physics are still the same, no one on a racetrack is hitting the curb, a concrete planter, light pole, sign, or the side of a car that has just turned in front of them. The physics are no different, but the accident dynamics of t-boning that sedan that just cut you off are sure different from taking a tumble into the hay bales. Race tracks are 'slicked up' with such protrusions removed, no curbs, gutters, or fire hydrants to trip a guy up there or ruin what would be a relatively clean slide to burn off energy--very unlike your average intersection out in the real world. Race tracks are designed with rider survival in mind, otherwise, the racers would be in a different line of work. The rest of the world is not so hospitable.

SO, the critical dynamic is this: On the racetrack, the rider seldom hits a fixed object which is not designed to absorb the energy from the impact, to the rider's benefit.

Out in reality, the rider impacts helmet first at 50-60 mph into a fixed object which does not give, so something else does. The helmet 'protects' the skull, absorbs some energy, and the neck absorbs the rest. Guess what breaks?

[brianl703]

What this person fails to realize about red-light-cameras:

With a police officer:

Dope dealer runs red light. Officer pulls dope dealer over. Dope dealer acts very nervous and officer asks to search vehicle. Dope dealer gets busted when officer finds drugs in trunk/glove compartment/etc.

With a red-light camera:

Dope dealer runs red light. A picture of his license plate is taken. The person whom the car is registered to, which may well NOT be the dope dealer, gets the ticket in the mail. Dope dealer continues to run free.

Red-light and speed cameras are a poor substitute for a human police officer doing a traffic stop, and in fact I think they degrade law enforcement, making it nothing more than a fine collection scheme.

[pageonetoo]

Yeah, them nasty dope smokers are evil!

The only thing I see wrong with your scenario is that it requires a cop to be suspicious... and ask for a search! Nervous does not equal dope smoker... or mule! Why should anybody be detained because a LEO wants to search your car...even when he SEES NOTHING ILLEGAL!

Why do you not support the 4th amendment*? A suspicious LEO is not "probable cause", even though the SCOTUS tells us that a dog sniffing your vehicle/person isn't a search! I don not agree with your post! Both are abuses!

*Amendment IV- The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.