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Posted on 01/25/2005 1:43:27 AM PST by Stoat
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Here in the US, it appears we've gone a lot further than Spain.
Sad but true
Perhaps in some respects, but I have hope. From the article:
The Pope said the politics of the Spanish prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, were "promoting disdain towards religion".
I don't believe that our President is promoting disdain towards religion, quite the contrary. And our nation is better and stronger because of it.
The Pope criticised initiatives of Mr Zapatero, such as his plans to make religious education in state schools voluntary by allowing students to replace religion with a civics course.
In this matter I would agree...we have gone much further than Spain and we have suffered, as a culture, from having religion entirely removed from schools.
Other new laws will allow marriage between homosexuals, make divorce and abortion easier and permit stem cell research.
On these points I would suggest that we are still not so bad, in that we have managed to thwart (for the moment) any national acceptance of 'marriage' between homosexuals. Abortion and divorce are far too easy here I grant you, but I feel a great resistance to the status quo and no serious threat to make them any easier. Stem cell research has, I believe, been largely limited to sources other than the fetal stem cells. I may be wrong and I know that what we already have is problematic because it represents a 'slippery slope' toward fetal stem cell research.
All in all, I will agree with you that in some areas we have indeed gone further in the wrong direction than Spain, but wouldn't you say that there's reason to have hope?
Religious education IS voluntary in Spain - they have always been allowed to replace the religion course with an ethics course. The actual issue is whether these classes will have credit, because if they don't, they're purely recreational and kids will stop taking them. Currently, almost 90% of Spanish parents want their kids to take the religion class, but if it is marginalized, the kids are going to see it as unimportant and so, eventually, will the parents.
They also provide non-Catholic education in areas with over a certain percentage of another religion. Of course, after Zapatero came in, he announced that Muslim religious education was going to be available at virtually all schools, even those with only one or two Muslims (who could have taken the ethics course).
So you can see that ZP has a double agenda; no, actually, he doesn't. His one agenda is hatred of the Catholic Church. The left in Spain hasn't been this bold about expressing their hatred since 1934 - and we all know what that led to.
The outburst came when he met the archbishop of Madrid, Cardinal Antonio Rouco Varela, and a group of Spanish bishops who were visiting the Vatican following a row over the use of condoms in tackling the Aids epidemic.
Actually, the bishops were in Rome on an ad limina visit. The pope used their visit to make a statement. The MSM love to spin these stories!
Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II (R), greeted by Madrid archbishop Cardinal Antonio Maria Rouco Varela, called on Spanish Catholics to defend the Christian way of life, which he said was under attack in Spain in a climate of increasing secularism and moral laxity.
Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II poses with some cardinals and bishops of the Spanish Conference of Catholic Bishops, during their visit 'Ad Limina Apostolorum,' in Clementine Hall at the Vatican.
Catholic Ping - please freepmail me if you want on/off this list
Thank you very much for your insights. I'm glad that the Pope, despite his infirmity, retains a strong will and a great love of God that he can still use to great effect during these difficult times.
Religion is to Europe and specifically Spain as "family" prayer before dinner is to Americas. It's something that was important years ago but since life is easy, it's no longer important and no one seems to have the time to take part in it.
-Popular Party leader in the Northern Spanish state of Galicia.
Thank you :-) I found it at the Vatican website. You can see it and other information here:
The Holy See - The Holy Father - John Paul II
Actually, the bishops were in Rome on an ad limina visit. The pope used their visit to make a statement. The MSM love to spin these stories!
I agree, the MSM is lousy in any coverage pertaining to religion or religious issues. Thank you very much for your correction and clarification.
Thank you also for the great pictures and for pinging others who might like to read the story :-)
One of my high school teachers in the '50s was a Spaniard and a big Franco supporter.
He believed that Spain could only function effectivly as a dictatorship due to the argumentive nature of the Spanish people.
It will be interesting to see if they make it as a democracy.
Sadly, I must agree. I would suggest, however, that in many ways Europe has drifted even further away from religion than America has. This last Presidential election gave me great hope for our future. There are many problems that face us still, but our President's faith as well as his steadfastness in the face of breathtakingly vicious opposition all give me great hope for our country and our culture.
A majority of the "Christian Democratic" parties do not even have nominal ties to what we would consider organized religion.
Once you move west of Poland, you're entering secular humanist territory.
Sadly it's youth driven and for somewhat pragmatic reasons. America has a religious-intellectual dualism whereby its citizenry can be faithful and live well. Europe has/had a religious-Feudalistic dualism whereby its citizenry can be faithful but must wait for something to happen to live well. Youth is sort of fed-up with waiting and they see no system in place to equal the system in America. I think the trend will continue for some time to come. Americans should be grateful to the founding fathers.
Once you move west of Poland, you're entering secular humanist territory.
That's so terribly, terribly sad. I think it's quite telling that the regions once known as "eastern bloc" are now, with their newly-found freedoms, some of the most passionate supporters of Democracy and along with it, religion....they understand what freedom means, and also how important religion is. I suppose the difference in East vs. Western Europe may have a bit to do with the relative prosperity that Western Europe has experienced post WW2...they thought that with their prosperity, they could embrace Socialism and leave God at the curb. They are now finding that this wasn't such a good choice...their economies are failing and their cultures are falling apart. Bad choices have consequences.
Sadly it's youth driven and for somewhat pragmatic reasons. America has a religious-intellectual dualism whereby its citizenry can be faithful and live well. Europe has/had a religious-Feudalistic dualism whereby its citizenry can be faithful but must wait for something to happen to live well. Youth is sort of fed-up with waiting and they see no system in place to equal the system in America. I think the trend will continue for some time to come. Americans should be grateful to the founding fathers.
Very well-put...thank you.
I think that moral laxity is a result of secularism.
"The Pope attacks Spanish socialists"
Good, but I doubt that Spanish socialists cares about the Pope.
The church, founded by Christ, is still an organization manned by humans with human failings. This is not the first time the leaders of the church have had to weather a storm of human failing.
And although Europe is choosing secularism over the "principle of secularity," the church is going gung-ho in parts of the world like Asia and Africa, often in the face of great danger.
Mostly, if we want the church to be vibrant in the face of the persecution of secularism, we have to be willing to be living witnesses, martyrs, and make it clear who we are and what we believe, even when it's inconvenient.
Cultural Christianity, which a lot of Europe used to have and still has some remnants of, is not the truth.
It's sad that there is this purification because of human failing, but the gates of hell will not prevail. Jesus said so.
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