Posted on 11/30/2004 12:51:08 AM PST by eluminate
A few years ago, a friend of mine was sent to Kiev by the British government to teach Ukrainians about the Western democratic system. His pupils were young reformers from western Ukraine, affiliated to the Conservative party. When they produced a manifesto containing 15 pages of impenetrable waffle, he gently suggested boiling their electoral message down to one salient point. What was it, he wondered? A moment of furrowed brows produced the lapidary and nonchalant reply, 'To expel all Jews from our country.'
It is in the west of Ukraine that support is strongest for the man who is being vigorously promoted by America as the country's next president: the former prime minister Viktor Yushchenko. On a rainy Monday morning in Kiev, I met some young Yushchenko supporters, druggy skinheads from Lvov. They belonged both to a Western-backed youth organisation, Pora, and also to Ukrainian National Self-Defence (Unso), a semi-paramilitary movement whose members enjoy posing for the cameras carrying rifles and wearing fatigues and balaclava helmets. Were nutters like this to be politically active in any country other than Ukraine or the Baltic states, there would be instant outcry in the US and British media; but in former Soviet republics, such bogus nationalism is considered anti-Russian and therefore democratic.
(Excerpt) Read more at zmag.org ...
there was also 3 church fires in western ukraine of the moscow patriarchate orthodox churches since the 19th of nov. With vandalisations and similar slogans being left upon them.
http://www.ukrnow.com/content/view/1837/
excrept:
It is said the Yushchenko supporters stopped the meeting, shouted antichurch slogans and threw around leaflets entitled "Ukraine is only for Ukrainians."
Much of that is implicitly anti-American tripe. That being said, if this involved nothing more than getting Ukraine into NATO and away from a revived Sovietesque bloc, that works for me!
I'll take the pro-American thug over the anti-American thug any day, and that's not an endorsement of thugs..
its not Anti-American tripe its more of an evaluation of whom America and Britain are supporting ...
It presents selective factoids to characterize Anglo-American policy toward Ukraine in the worst possible light, and it provides a one-dimensional sliver of the relevant issues.
I don't think we can take for granted that Yushchenko is pro-American. The liberal media says he is "pro-west," but that could mean "pro-EU" and France ain't America. Unfortunately the liberal media has not told us much of anything about Yushchenko's campaign promises or executive successes as Prime Minister.
As to the anti-semitic stuff, be careful of what you read from British sources.
Ukrainians are going through a period of resurgent nationalism and "Ukraine for Ukrainians" is not to be wondered at.
They are not interested in being under the influence of the Russians who they consider uncultured and corrupt thieves.
regards,
Perhaps the American and the British are actually trying to help the Ukrainian people ?
What? But they are such cute and bright kids, not storm troopers, are they?
Please explain how he is pro American. He is pro-West alright, pro EU Franco-Germanic-Spainish monstrocity of the Fourth Reich, West. But what has he said or done to show his pro-Americanism? Has he committed to helping us in Iraq or the War on Terror? Is he anti-Kyoto (hardly since the Greens are one of his constituents). What has he said that is pro-American? I've yet to see that. Plenty pro-EU stuff though. And don't give me the NATO excuse as pro American, 2/3rds of NATO members dispise America and did jack shiete to help us after 911, except for "moral" support.
The only promise of Yushenko's that I know of that deals with America is to tell us where to go shove it in Iraq, since he plans to pull out the 1,700 troops there. He already tried and failed in parliment. He surely isn't anti-Kyoto either since the Greens are his backers. He is going to join the Fourth Reich (EU) to our detriment. I've posted quite a few articles explaining what the Fourth Reich trully is and what it will mean for us. Just search under 'EU'.
Which Ukrainians do you speak for? The 50% who supported Yanukovich or the 50% who supported Yushenko? You can hardly speak for Ukrainians as a whole with that split. Just like you can hardly speak of Americans backing Bush's policies as a whole when we all know that 46% of our population dispises him, as wrong as they may be in that they still do. That's the problem with the MSM generalizations. Why does no one believe the MSM when it talks about US affairs but worship at their feet when the same lieing socialists speak of other nations?
You believe this MSM that tells you daily that Iraq is lost, the PLO are innocents, Israelies are evil, Iran is A OK, China is our buddy, the EU is a bunch of social and friendly guys.
dude are u really that close minded? I used ukranian & british sources... Why is it so unplausable for those events to have taken place? His party is after all the nationalist one UNSO stands for united nationalist socialist o.. something , they are nazis basicly.
I agree they are both the worst.
As to the anti-semitic stuff, be careful of what you read from British sources.
Should I wait for Dan Rather and the New York Times to cover this?
Ukrainians are going through a period of resurgent nationalism and "Ukraine for Ukrainians" is not to be wondered at.
Do you really think anything you didn't see with your own eyes...is not to be wondered at?
1. I do not speak for any portion of the Ukrainian people, but I do speak frequently with a Ukrainian family.
2. The issue in Ukraine is the systemic corruption of the Kuchma government and Yukachenko is part of that. They have a better chance with Yuschenko.
3. British sources of news in the main are decidedly leftist as is the New york Times and Dan Rather.
3. Ukraine has been independent from Russia for the first time since the Tatar invasion and they are not about to let that go.
4. Ukraine for Ukrainians? Go there and see as I have; they are very nationalistic. If Yuschenko gets in you may even see many of the Ukrainian diaspora from around the world returning to the homeland.
The Ukrainians are a great people who have suffered a lot in history. I hope they prosper.
Regards,
I also have friends in Ukraine, in Dniepepitrovsk (?sp) and Kharkov and they all voted Yanukovich, are angry at the West (Ukrainian, EU and US) and say that in their areas everything is quiet.
Ukraine didn't exist before the Tartar invasions. Ukraine is derived from Yusni Krie (southern edge), which was the edge of the Kieven Russ. Below that were turks and others. Kieven Russ stretched from Galacia (Lvov) to Vladimer (east of Moscow). Moscow was a small town when the Mongols arrived. (There were no Tartars actually, since Chengus Khan had exterminated them in revenge for them killing his father).
Poland-Lithuania had invaded western Russ and taken most of what is now Ukraine while the Mongols came in from the other side.
The problem is: eastern Ukraine is extremely close culturally to main line Russians. Ukrainian is seen as the village language while Russian is the educated (same as Bavarian vs High German). Western Ukraine is closer to Poland. But when they say the West, don't confuse that with the Anglo-sphere West. This is the MSM after all. They are speaking of the Franco-Germanic-Spanish West, and if you think the EU is anything like us, you are deeply mistaken.
I've posted a bunch of articles on the Fourth Reich, look under 'EU'.
I have been to Ukraine but central and eastern and they are not Nationalistic there. It says a lot that the vast majority of jews voted against Yuschenko and fear him. I spoke with some while there a year ago. They were afraid they might be new pogroms as in some small area of western Ukraine, or so they'd heard anyways.
There are very few people who haven't suffered greatly, history is like that. Most people are great on an individual level, it's what the body politic does that's the problem. Look at it this way, only 10% of Germans were Nazis, didn't help the rest of the World did it?
The 4th Reich vs Soviet Communism?
Punt team...
If you are referring to modern Russia, it might have an autocratic lean but in no way is it economically a communist state (communism is an economic not a political system).
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