Russia Hostage Death Toll Said to Top 200

My Way, AP ^ | Sep 3, 4:37 PM (ET) | MIKE ECKEL

[Agrarian]

There was never any reason to feel pity for the Chechnyan militants. Clinton's people had their own obscure reasons for wanting to go to war in the Balkans to help Muslims and to support the Chechnyan Muslims. Didn't understand it then, don't understand it now. The only good thing is that after 9/11, America understands what the Serbs and the Russians have always known -- being nice to aggressive Muslims is not the answer...

[iThinkBig]

"I hope the Russians will now question their decades-long policy of supporting the Arab/moslem world against the US and Israel."

Funny you mentioned that, I was debating that same point with someone earlier. I totally agree with you.

[fire_eye]

When the Romans were unable to reach an accomodation with an enemy, and had found the enemy so intractable as to be incapable of keeping a peace agreement, they would, after conquering, kill every living thing in the enemy's territory: men, women, children, dogs, horses - everything.

The Romans did not do this out of savagery, but because they had determined over the course of hundreds of years that such measures were the only effective means of causing barbarians to fear Rome enough that they would stop committing depradations on the fringes of the Empire.

[A Jovial Cad]

I agree. My response to the post in question was more a rhetorical "slap on the back" or "right on" than anything else: I've NEVER sympathized with the Chechen's, though I must confess I haven't really paid the whole mess there that much attention until now. I do know that after 9/11 President Bush called Premier Putin to discuss the War On Terror and Putin basically said something to the effect that Russia was "already on the case" (not an actual quote, just something to that effect) in Chechnya.
As to the deal in the Balkans, I offer a different response: I have painstakingly avoided any commentary on the Serbian/Balkans/Clinton Kosovo policy for precisely two reasons:
1. I don't know enough about the entire issue to offer an honest, coherent, opinion.
2. I have seen enough flame-laden threads about the Balkans matter at FR that I'm not sure *I want* to know enough to come down on one side or the other concerning what, to me, is not a too terribly important region of the world vis-a-vi the WOT.
That said, I wholeheartedly endorse this observation: *being nice to aggressive Muslims is not the answer...*
I agree 100% with that statement.

[iThinkBig]

Hmmm. Perhaps, but if so I believe it will be short-lived. Putin is taking them in the wrong direction and squashing freedom of speech. An example is this Yukos ordeal. It tells any intelligent investor that the free market is still a very long ways away in Russia.

I think this kind of attacks on her soil make the bear want to go back to the communism days very much.

[iThinkBig]

Now if we only had the Russian leadership thinking the same way as this guy!

[FITZ]

There was never any reason to feel pity for the Chechnyan militants.

"Chechan militants" doesn't explain what the 10 Arabs were doing there --- half the killed "militants" end up being Arabs. Maybe Chechans are like Black Muslims --- recruited by the Arabs to be used when Arabs decide the time is right.

[iThinkBig]

To me, the mulsim clerics already are a huge problem. You never know when one them will decide to pick up arms and join the global Jihad or simply began preaching that kind of message.

[oyez]

As I have said before, there is no earthly reason for this event to have happened.

[Agrarian]

I remember some of those flame-laden threads, and want to avoid those, too! The Balkans is a place where you sometimes wish all the sides could lose. The roots of that conflict are in the 400 year Ottoman occupation of the region, and there was and is no satisfactory solution, which is why I always felt we should just stay out of it, and take neither side.

I don't know if the Balkans are important in the WOT or not, to be honest. But the amount of money poured into Bosnia and Kosovo from the Middle East during that conflict by the same "relief organizations" that we have become familiar with in the post 9/11 era leaves no doubt as to the importance that many aggressive-minded Muslims themselves placed on their toe-hold in Europe.

My overall point is that the Clinton administration had no concept of the implications of Islamic militancy as a world-wide force, and didn't calculate this into their decisions. I don't think that the WOT can be separated from the larger phenomenon of Islamic expansionism (not that I think that's what you're saying). I don't know whether the current administration agrees with this, but even if they did, they wouldn't be able to state it publically.

[Agrarian]

Yes, this is indeed the most disturbing part of this incident, but not surprising. Jihad is a world-wide phenomenon that isn't restricted to Arabs, though. In Arab Iraq, you will find Asian Muslims helping out, in Indonesia you will find Arabs helping out, and in Afghanistan we even found an American Muslim helping out.

The Arab world seems to be the seed-bed of extremism, but the rest of the Muslim world, regardless of ethnic background, appears to contribute its share of foot-soldiers to the cause, too. Islam is not a religion of peace, and the tendency of its adherents to be drawn into violence against non-Muslims (or at least to silently tolerate it) is no accident, but I do agree with the assertion that most Muslims just want food on the table and a roof over their heads, just like every other human being.

[A Jovial Cad]

I pretty much endorse what you say as far as I know about the matter which, I must stress, is not all that much. I do know that the fuse which sparked the conflagration of WWI was lit in Serbia, with the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand, and that the Ottoman Empire was pretty much shattered after that conflict. I *didn't* know that they'd been there for 400 years--thanks for that info.
The entire area just seems to be a troubled--and troublesome--region, all the way back to the times of the Roman Empire. A place best avoided, IMHO, unless critical U.S. interests are at stake.
Hope you don't mind me changing the subject, but I just noticed your tag line. How good a chance do you think Thune has? I've never been to South Dakota, but I'd sure consider sending his campaign a donation if it looks like it's going to be close. Thanks.

[Agrarian]

Thune can definitely win. Daschle is worried, and should be. Money is important, but at this point I think that a Bush visit to SD (not to campaign for Thune so much as to campaign for himself and motivate the Republican base to turn out) will do the most good of all. That, and pray...

A Daschle defeat would help create the impression of a larger Bush mandate, that's why it's so important, I think.

[xJones]

What kind of primitive savages worship a stinking rock? Really!

The Hajar al-Aswad (the Black Stone) is not your average rock, it has a weird history. The animist Arabs worshipped that meteorite long before Islam. Mohammed simply took possession it, kissed it, and it's still being effectively worshiped in the annual Islamic rituals.

Now days it's set in gold and hangs on a wall of the Holy Kaaba. Muslims making hajj are supposed to try and kiss it like Mohammed allegedly did, or at the very least wave at it as they do the ritual 7 circles around the Kaaba. (I swear I'm not making any of this up, you can research it for yourself.)

.

According to Islamic lore the meteorite dropped at Adam's feet after he was expelled from Eden. It was white originally, but turned black from absorbing the sins of men.

BTW, if you ever wondered what else goes on during the hajj after they try to kiss that filthy rock, it gets even more bizarre. The faithful get to run seven times between Mt. Safa and Mt. Marwah (which aren't mountains, just rises in the desert), and then they proceed to Mina, a few miles from Mecca. That's where they do "The Throw". They throw pebbles over their shoulders at 3 stone pillars that represent devils.

You can imagine how many accidents and deaths occur annually to Muslim pilgrims during all this, particularly because the Saudi hosts aren't exactly famous for their organizational abilities.:)

[Michael2001]

My prayers and sympathy are with the Russian people

[eno_]

To me, the mulsim clerics already are a huge problem.

You are saying "Islam is the problem." And, you are correct. "Moderate" Islam exists only in theory.

[Drammach]

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0046651.html
Alania
Autonomous republic in the south of the Russian Federation, on the border with Georgia; area 8,000 sq km/3,088 sq mi; population (1992) 695,000. A new constitution was adopted in 1994 and the republic took its former name of Alania. The capital is Vladikavkaz (formerly Ordzhonikidze). Alania lies on the northern slopes of the central Caucasus, and its main rivers are the Terek, the Gizeldon, and the Ardon. Its industries include mining and metallurgy (lead, zinc, silver), maize processing, timber and woodwork, textiles, building materials, distilleries, food processing, and hydroelectric power generation.

History
Alania, part of the region of Ossetia, was annexed by Russia in 1774. Under the Soviets, it was made part of the Mountain Peoples’ Autonomous Republic in 1920, became the North Ossetian Autonomous Oblast in 1924, and an autonomous republic from 1936. The republic was occupied by German forces in 1942.

The inhabitants are primarily Sunni Muslims.