Posted on 08/01/2004 3:09:43 AM PDT by lizol
Warsaw uprising: How to heal the wounds?
Gerhard Schroeder will be the first German Chancellor to attend Poland's commemorations of the Warsaw uprising. Poland's Prime Minister, Marek Belka, is keen for the German Chancellor to dispel the "bad atmosphere" between their two countries on the 60th anniversary of the uprising.
The Warsaw uprising against their Nazi occupiers lasted for 63 days and resulted in the deaths of about 200,000 Poles and the total destruction of the city.
The Polish resistance believed that Russia, US and UK would provide assistance but very little help arrived.
Mr Belka has also said that the Polish people would welcome an apology from Britain for not doing enough to assist the Warsaw uprising.
How should the wounds over the Warsaw uprising be healed? Are Germany and Poland good neighbours now? And should the UK apologise? Send us your views.
The following comments reflect the balance of opinion we have received so far:
Some wounds take a long time to heal, but it is nevertheless admirable that the Germans have seized the opportunity for reconciliation. It is a landmark event that is representative of bright prospects for EU unity. Prashanth Parameswaran, Malaysia
While 60 years is a long time, Britain should apologize out of guilt at least - 200,000 people is a devastating loss. Prashanth Parameswaran, Malaysia
WD Krueger, Udonthani, Thailand The uprising clearly demonstrated that aspirations and hopes of the people are always being ignored by politics. Stalin halted the Red Army to wait for his own hidden agendas and the allies did nor provide any help for their own hidden agendas. Churchill of course had already drawn a map with Stalin as to who has what say in what area that was to become the Soviet Union's cordon sanitaire until 1989 when the USSR collapsed. WD Krueger, Udonthani, Thailand
We went to war for Poland in 1939, we bankrupted a huge Empire fighting it, we had no way to stop the Nazi's in 1944 in Poland, and we certainly didn't have any way of stopping Russia taking over Poland after the war. Theo, UK
During the World War II living under the German terror unimaginable for the people from the west Poland being a western ally lost: 25% of its population 39% of doctors 33% of teachers 26% of lawyers 70% of industry 90% of cultural heritage (in Warsaw alone) We do not need apologies (perhaps for the Germans) but we ask you to remember about that Tom, Warsaw
Apologies are absurd once the leadership of the generation who offended, or not, are dead. Make no exceptions to that rule and you cannot go wrong. Andrew, London
Poland should celebrate and be very proud of the bravery of their fellow citizens that, against great odds, stood up to the Nazis and fought back with everything they had. France surrendered quickly and yet has no problem throwing annual fancy glittery parades and praising their role in the war. Don't worry about "old wounds", celebrate Poland's brave and noble stand against Nazis. I salute you, Poland. Alistair Asquith, NJ, US / London, UK
How can the wounds of World War II be counted as "healed" when today the few thousand European Jews left on the Continent are again leaving it to escape resurgent anti-Semitism, as well as the apathy of "good Europeans" who stand by and do nothing to stop it? Cole, USA
The Polish patriots who died fighting need no phoney apologies from present day politicians. Anyone who reads the history and views the photos knows what happened. The UK WWII conduct was second to none. Everyone present here now should be thankful. xtela, USA
I think Poland doesn't need apology. What Poland needs is good memory to trust no allies. Artur, Krakow, Poland
I personally do not think that Poland need any "apology" from the UK but simply recognition of some basic facts: Poland was the first country to oppose both Germany and Soviet Union in 1939. Its contribution to the allies' victory was huge and the Warsaw uprising (when on Hitler's order Warsaw was razed to ground and 150 000 civilians executed) Monte Cassino, Battle of Britain, Normandy are examples of heroic battles polish soldiers fought. Not to mention breaking the Enigma code and delivering it to England or alarming the Allies about Germans' death camps. For all of that we and other nations were left under Soviets for 50years Tadeusz, Krakow, Poland
Russia seems to get a lot of criticism for the failing to come to the aid of the Warsaw uprising. I have read Russian supreme commander Georgi Zukov's war journal and he said the Red Army had been fighting continuously for six weeks before arriving at the gates of Warsaw and was in need of rest and re-supply. Certainly from the military standpoint an army cannot fight continuously, and changing from open ground to urban warfare requires a different mix of weapons and tactics; tanks are especially vulnerable in city streets. Perhaps the political leadership of the Polish resistance should have co-ordinated with Russians, rather than trying to go it alone. Douglas Helmson, Glasgow
Poland seem to be the forgotten ally of WW2. They fought alongside the RAF and at Monte Cassino after their own country had been lost to the Germans. They lost over 120,000 troops that fought with the allies and another 60,000 men in the first 17 days of the German/Russian invasion of their own country. I feel they were woefully betrayed by the allies. In particular the USA and Russia. I don't really think Churchill had a choice when Poland was tossed away to the Soviets at the end of the war. It's good to see some form of reconciliation between Poland and Germany after 60 years though. Richard Fforbes, Warwickshire
The UK has always been treated by the Poles as a good ally and good friend. We had and still have strong and long relationship that I'm sure will be strengthened further in the years to come. During the Warsaw uprising Poland was let down by lack of confidence on the side of Britain and by the non-action. I think this is the main thing that hurts Poles today. If a Britain feels themselves as an ally of Poland, then they should apologise...if not, let's forget it. Pawel, London
No matter what we do, no matter how much we help, somebody always has to kick us in the teeth. Robert Sutton, Halifax, England
It is commendable and noble to see Gerhard Schroeder and Collin Powell attend the Uprising's 60th Anniversary. It is deplorable and shameful not to see Vladimir Putin attend. The wounds will not heal until the Soviet Government admits to deliberately withholding assistance to the insurgents. Paul Balcer, Herndon, VA
60 years, don't you think it's about time we let bygones be bygones? The people that made the orders at the top are long dead, move on, never forget, but don't dwell Paul Weaver, London, UK
After all these years thanks God many feelings has changed in Europe. The nightmares and evil spirits of those times are only memories now. There's no reason for Poland and Germany not to be good neighbours. Let's allow healing to work. As to Britain's apologies, they're no longer necessary. Mazurek, Brazil
Of course not! The British are continually told that this is all in the past and that we are now part of a United Europe. Germans no longer feel guilty about what they did and I fail to see why we should either. Perhaps an apology from Germany would be more appropriate? Mark S, UK
As a an Englishman at that time I felt totally ashamed at how we made promises and then abandoned them so quickly. I realize it was virtually impossible to realistically intervene but then don't falsely encourage. To compound matters never since then has any British leader had the courage or decency to apologise or offer reparations. Tony Blair should do both immediately, and apologise for the delay too. Jim Nicholls, Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Poland was in the crosshairs, sitting between communist Russia and Nazi Germany, and without the means to defend herself effectively. What happened was horrible, tragic, a stain on human history. Reminds me a little of Taiwan's situation. But Taiwan can defend herself, at least for a time, and she does have a defense treaty with the US, which the US should honor.
Step 1 in healing wounds: stop supporting the Islamonazis?
Don't forget that at that time Poland also had great allies and treaties signed.
((The Warsaw uprising against their Nazi occupiers lasted for 63 days and resulted in the deaths of about 200,000 Poles and the total destruction of the city.
The Warsaw Ghetto began in 1940, When JEWS were forced to pay for and Build a wall 11 miles long and 10 feet high around the ghetto, in order to "prevent the spread of typhus" to outside the ghetto, and to "protect the Jewish inhabitants from Polish attackers from outside the Ghetto" The ghetto size was progressively decreased as JEWS were forced to surrender their homes and businesses to Poles of German descent, and deportations to extermination camps lowered the population. It was still the most densely populated Area in Europe with 165,000 remaining JEWS on 11 acres when the Nazis tried first exterminate the Ghetto in April of 1944.
((lasted for 63 days and resulted in the deaths of about 200,000 Poles and the total destruction of the city.
and resulted in the death of 200,000 JEWS while their Polish neighbors looked in from outside the ghetto with wonderment that they lasted that long.
((The Polish resistance believed that Russia, US and UK would provide assistance but very little help arrived
The Polish resistance was outside the Ghetto and assisted marginally by providing weapons, for a fee.
The first step in healing the wounds, is to admit that the ghetto was packed with JEWS, many turned over to the gestapo by their Polish friends and neighbors.
The second step would be to stop comparing a wall in Warsaw that was built to keep in Jews, to a Wall in Israel that was built to keep out murdering islamo-facist terrorists.
First - try to learn a little bit more of Polish history, so You won't be mixing the upraising in Warsaw Ghetto jn 143 nad the Warsaw uprising in 1944 anymore.
I suggest You to start with these threads:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/1181474/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1181902/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1182343/posts.
Second - I'm not going to argue with You about the stand of Polish underground forces and administration during Ghetto uprising, because - as far as I can see - You have Your opinion shaped already, not willing to change it.
The only thing I will say, is that our possibilities at that time were very limited and within those possibilities the Home Army and underground adiministration helped the Jewish insurgents as much as they could.
At the same time governments of the Western allies did nothing to help them, as the Jewish community in America (no weapons air-dropped, no money, nothing).
Jews have rewritten and taught their version of Polish history. You can always think up a good excuse to hate anyone you please.
It is happening in US, too.
Since I lived in a Jewish community in US I very well know they did nothing but one can hardly dare to say this because truth is not important. The end justifies the means (tainted "history").
This can't be applied as a genral rule, but unfortunately there are many people, especially in US, who think like mikvahyid does.
Discusion and exchange of views is a good way to change it. You see, if You were told the only "truth" the whole live, not nowig anything else You'd problably also be convinced that You're right.
The only problem is - if such people are willing to discuss and to exchange opinions and knowledge. Because very, very often they're so convinced of their views, that any dialogue makes no sense.
Thank you for that post, Grzegorz. It confirmed some thing I knew and taught me some new things.
Just out of curiousity, how were the UK and US supposed to help an armed rebellion which was taking place hundreds of miles behind German lines? We were already in combat on the Western Front and the Pacific Theater. Thousands of Brit and Yank airmen were already dying in the daily/nightly bomber assaults on Germany. What more was expected, on a moments notice, to happen? What are the UK and US supposed to apologize for NOT doing?
IMHO, the Polish underground initiated a premature uprising which the Soviets allowed the Germans to crush, thus ensuring there could be no Polish resistance to the Soviet occupation.
On a final note, I seem to recall a French uprising which was also initiated too soon. Allied forces were too far away to assist and lots of Frenchmen died. Can't remember the name of the place, tho.
Apologize my foot.
Unfortunately you are correct. It's sad but we can't change what was reality back then.
First, the allies had no way of knowing they would hold out as long as they did. Second, getting aircraft over the long distance would have been almost impossible. I think they would have had to use Russian airfields. Third, dropping supplies isn't like dropping bombs from high altitude. You have to drop low so the supplies aren't blown over the countryside. Fourth and this is the sad one, you have to consider the consequences of arming a lost cause. What happens to the supplies when the opposing army wins?
Oh for goodness sake, here we go with this touchy feely apologizing crap again. Why on earth do countries feel the need to have another country "apologize" for the deaths of people in their country? It was a GD War, millions died from all countries involved. IT'S IN THE STINKING PAST, GET OVER IT!
Personally I don't think that any apologies are necesary now, after 60 years.
But relating to Your question: "What are the UK and US supposed to apologize for NOT doing?" it might be NOT putting any pressure on Stalin about the Upraising; or NOT letting Polish 1st Parachute Brigade to fly to Poland (what it was created and trained for).
By the way - the Soviets weren't to far. The were just behind the river. So that was only a political decision not to support the Upraising. And this is the field, on which The Americans and the Brits failed.
But at that time it was probably decided already, that Poland will get to the Sovit sphere of influence.
I mentioned the incident in one of the other threads but like you, I don't recall the name of the town. It was just after D-Day and the townspeople fortified a hill anticipating the arrival of the allies. The invasion was stopped by the hedgerows and the break out took longer. The French townspeople were wiped out.
The only reason I had heard of this action was in one of the fiftieth anniversary magazines of D-Day. I haven't read anything else on it.
FDR and Churchill should ignore Stalin opposition and land at the territories occupied by Soviets. Stalin was weak, he cannot do anything and for sure he wouldn’t attack western allies. Brits should do anything what was possible to send polish troops from Britain. I don’t know that after 60 year any apologize have any sense, they should apologize long time ago, not only for not supporting Warsaw uprising but for 1939, for Teheran and Yalta. UK and USA officially accept COMMUNISTIC polish government and totally ignored legal government in exile in London, how polish peoples in that time should understand that move? How western allies treat polish soldiers who stayed in the West, from “heroes” during the war to the “dirty Poles” after war. Western and American propaganda hided truth about Russian crimes in Katyn and role of Poland during the war. That was fair in yours opinion?
"everything what was possible"
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