Posted on 06/14/2004 2:07:09 PM PDT by avg_freeper
LOL....Amen!
Seriously, it is Boeing's turn at bat. As bad as it may sound we do have to make sure we're distributing programs in a manner that keeps contractors involved. Lockheed has plenty of butter on it's bread. Throw a bone to boeing already. Big deal. I am sure the platform will perform just fine.
We need new birds, soonest. Put plainly, if we don't get them soon, a crew or two is gonna die.
Few if any flights take off nowadays and come back with NOTHING broken or malfunctioning.
Look for it to quietly go away.
They were pretty convincing (with figures to prove it) that the loiter time of the 737 was at least comparable to that of an ORION. Plus, the 737 has the capacity for In-Flight Refueling, thus extending the range indefinetely. You have to remember, also, that those two engines are far more reliable than the ORION's four.
BTW, I've had to ride one back with TWO engines in the bag...#'s 4 and 2, and that was in a thunderstorm, so I know how's ye feels, Shipmates.
Exactly.
Us Aircrew are likewise excited about it. Don't get us wrong, we love the old ORION, but she's due for retirement before someone gets hurt. Sorry, but when you climb aboard and all you can smell on the bird is pi$$, vomit, hydro fluid, and kerosene, in that order, it's time to look at a new model.
All it really gives up is onstation time at extreme range, but once again, the IFR nullifies that.
You are correct. The current P-3 even now performs far more roles than the basic ASW mission. We do that still, of course, but we also do surface search, reconnaisance (both feet-wet and feet-dry), anti-surface attack, land cruise missile attack, mining, search and rescue, counter-drug ops, and treaty enforcement.
Some of our birds have taken fire recently over Iraq AND Afghanistan, where they provide real-time intel to the boys on the ground.
We patrol the Eastern Med and IO for terr weapons smugglers, plus we still keep an eye or two on the Russians and Chinese.
The new MMA will be able to do ALL of that, as per the Navy's request, plus even more if need be, and it will do it with all-new electronics and weapons.
Do you even have a clue how much a nuclear submarine of ANY nationality costs? The Russians kept their very best, and they SOLD the rest. Even if they no longer fly the Russian flag, they'll still be at sea, and bear watching.
"China, Canada or N. Korea? They have junk, lucky to make a cruise and back home again, so keep a few P-3s around as watch dogs. "
Except for the brand-new KILO classes the Chinese just bought from the Russsians, or the new SONG class whose motors came from some very good European engineers. Whoops, let's not forget the Germans, shall we, who produce the finest diesel-powered subs in the world today, and gleefully sell them to anyone wit the cash. Those are quieter than many nukes, BTW. Oh, and the French, who make up for the low quality of theirt AGOSTA and DAPHNE with cut-rate, firte sale prices to whomever wants one. Oh, forgive me! I almost forgot the SIX KILO-Classes that Iran owns, and uses in the straights of Hormuz. Probably for entirely peaceful purposes, right?
I haven't even mentioned new advances like Air-Independant Propulsion, which, again, the Euros and Chinese and NK's are all quite excited about...it's essentially a DIESEL engine that chemically makes its own oxygen like a nuke, so it need not surface nearly as often as older diesel designs, and is MUCH quieter still.
PLease, do some research.
"Spend the money putting "Warthogs" on our border."
And just how will you then secure the COASTLINES? Guess what...you'll probably need a long-ranged, large patrol/reconnnaisance aircraft with some good sensors including IR, Photo, RADAR, ESM, and Acoustics to watch for the subs...Hmmm, sounds familiar...
Well! Faced with the threat of French and German subs (ICBM capable I presume) we should have a long range, high endurance flying platform that can track them down. Maybe something like an, oh, like a C-130, yea, thats the ticket, flys well on two engines (economy) staying on station forever(ask the Coast Guard) and we have hundreds (maybe thousands) of them, plus a million guys that know how to care, feed and fly them. Hey, get off your ass and do something about Airbus...Oh, Diesel subs? You mean air breathing subs. They are not true submarines, they are submersible boats, what threat are they? (am sure you can think of one) The only true submarines are nucs.
Your expertise seems to come from a strange pride in your own LACK of knowledge.
It might interest you to know, that C-130's and P-3's share the same engines and basic airframe parts. However, the ORION has NOT been replaced by newer ORIONS, as the 130 has. Our supply of flyable aircraft is dwindling. The ones that are left WILL kill a crew in the next few years...they are simply that old.
"Oh, Diesel subs? You mean air breathing subs. They are not true submarines, they are submersible boats, what threat are they?"
Obviously, you didn't read the post you replied to. Modern diesel submarines are every bit as quiet and capable as nukes, Sport. Especially the German ones...they lead the world in the technology and engineering. When they put out their Air-Independant Propulsion engines this year, they will be the equal of our best nukes.
However, I will not argue further with someone who posted the line above with a straight face. You have no idea how misinformed you are, or how ignorant.
" The only true submarines are nucs."
A diesel is just as capable of sinking a carrier as a nuke is, Sport. In fact, in excercises, they HAVE proven their ability to do so.
Of course, you know better, from your couch, right?
I was thinking of the Low-Frequency Active system that the Navy just spent a lot of time fighting for against several environmental groups (albeit in court).
I can guess the type of tactics that the Boeing P-8 (I think that is the next available designation) would use in conjunction with that system...
Oh, and do not forget the AIP subs comin' out... you know, the ones using the fuel cells. Quieter than diesels.
How well do you think a 737 will handle down on the deck as opposed to a P3? Can they maneuver as good? Do props have any acceleration advantage over engines? I mean in the engines themselves not the airframe.
As far as SURTASS LFA goes, I've heard absolutely NO mention of it as a viable, tactical option for months now. Yes, the Navy went to court for it, but that was, like so many other things of that nature, to show that the environMENTALists couldn't dictate to a military service what it could do or test.
If it comes online and can be proven, fine. However, I've seen no such proof yet. The guys up in Kef aren't too impressed, either, and if anyone would have been screaming for it, it waqs them.
From what I've seen, the 737, if it is properly stressed, will handle just as well. Don't forget, the P-3's four engines all turned in the same direction (if you're not a multi-engine pilot, ask one what this means), and there are, well, FOUR of the big, oily things hanging out there. That affects both "G" loading and rolling moment.
With two less engines, but with more overall performance, the 737 SHOULD do just fine. The P-3 started life as the Lockheed Electra, recall...a passenger airliner. We figured out how to do some pretty interesting things in it over 40 years, with sheer ingenuity. We'll do the same with a "P-8".
The folks who chose I'm sure also had your concerns but it seems Boeing answered their concerns successfully. These people are not stupid. Btw, I read an article way back where Boeing showed these folks at the pentagon that the 737 can indeed fly very low and slow to match the P-3.
Actually SPORT, I have been shot at and HIT, not from my couch, but on a street in Chu Lai, RVN, Oct. 1, 1966. While I honor your service, I see we are narrowing your argument..You have a problem with the C-130? State it. German subs, almost as good as nucs. The qualifying word is "almost". And you don't think our government has a say, along with NATO, the end point of German sub sales(they don't move about like used cars), nor do we not monitor (your job) their movement..By the way, how many of these subs have been constructed and who bought them? You seem to know everything, answer me that(suggest Jane's), SPORT.
I also saw the argument, and decided not to chime in. I have decided that life is to short to argue procurement with couch potatoes on the web.
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