FRESH CLUE SHOWS TURIN SHROUD MAY BE GENUINE BURIAL CLOTH OF CHRIST

The Mirror ^ | April 2, 2004 | David Edwards

[Alberta's Child]

The technique of making concrete was known to the Romans, then "lost" for hundreds of years.

Your point would be valid on its face, but I don't think it is relevant unless you could show that the technique in question was "lost" and wasn't even able to be replicated by a society that was capable of transplanting human organs, mapping DNA, and landing men on the moon.

As for how it could be created today ? - perhaps the answer would be to use the paints available at the time, store it in containers made of certain wood and metal which oxidizes, take it out into certain light and humidity conditions, perhaps wash it numerous times with water of different chemical properties in a specific order, hang it up allowing incense to permeate it, subject it to various temperatures from fires .... after hundreds of years of this, it may look exactly like the shroud.

And if you sat a monkey down at a typewriter, he could eventually type a random sequence of letters, spaces, and punctuation in such a way that he replicates the Declaration of Independence.

Your "explanation" is typical of the last resort of a scientific process that is at a loss to explain something: Simply offer an explanation that can't possibly be adequately tested, and leave it at that.

[Alberta's Child]

Does this reflex keep those thumbs pinned AFTER the nails have been removed and AFTER the person has died and his body been washed?

I would think so. The reflex is the result of a complete severing of the nerve in question, and since there is no indication that any of the twelve apostles was proficient in orthopedic microsurgery I would think there was no way to "fix" the underlying problem before burial.

[mtbopfuyn]

HA! And some claim the Word of God has not been changed one iota in all these years.

[cyncooper]

The shroud devotees should read their bibles. Particularly John 20: 6-7

Obviously, that was NOT Jesus' shroud.

Actually, those passages confirm for me the shroud covered Christ. As I pointed out, see above the reference to the head cloth (napkin in my Bible) in Spain with the same rare blood type found on the shroud.

The Sudarium of Oviedo: Its History and Relationship to the Shroud of Turin

Excerpt:

Such a cloth is known to have existed from the gospel of John, chapter 20, verses 6 and 7. These verses read as follows, "Simon Peter, following him, also came up, went into the tomb, saw the linen cloth lying on the ground, and also the cloth that had been over his head; this was not with the linen cloth but rolled up in a place by itself." John clearly differentiates between this smaller face cloth, the sudarium, and the larger linen that had wrapped the body.

~snip~

[the OlLine Rebel]

Additionally, I have a question about the whole Carbon-14 thing.

Now, I'm not a scientist in any such respecting such archaelogy or historical studies, but I am of scientific background. Just not that branch.

However, I don't recall the half-life of U237/9 (whatever it is) specifically, but I thought it was around 1500 years. In any case, since I went to college I've wondered how this carbon-dating could figure anything *older* than that? W/the Shroud, I've always thought that if it's around 2000 years, how could this method ever possibly prove it to be so?

[CCCnative]

The shroud devotees should read their bibles. Particularly John 20: 6-7 Obviously, that was NOT Jesus' shroud.
How wide is a strip? I think that is open to interpretation.

[Alberta's Child]

Anatomically correct but the front and back are different sizes. The measurements aren't consistant meaning each side was made separately. As to your #2, I find it hard to believe people before the 20th century were as ignorant as they're made out to be.

So let me get this straight . . . This image was created by a forger from the Middle Ages who was astute enough to include anatomically correct details about: 1) the placement of nails in the wrists instead of the palms, and 2) the results of reflexive actions in the thumbs caused by severed nerves in the wrists -- but wasn't smart enough to make both sides of the image the same size???

[WVNan]

Ian Wilson wrote "The Blood and The Shroud" which is the most facinating book I've ever read. He used extensive investigative methods and experts to prove the case for the Shroud. If you like Sherlock Holmes mysteries, you would love this book. Follow his clues and the history he pieced together and you will come away a believer.

[labowski]

Check this out........

http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping21.htm

[Alberta's Child]

I would expect the image on the front to be larger than the one on the rear. If this is the case, then I would consider this point to be a strong piece of evidence in support of the Shroud's authenticity.

[the OlLine Rebel]

In any case, if the faithful are wrong, that doesn't make it a "hoax", either. It could simply be a misconception. Even if it was an ancient cloth, it could have been something some1 found and *honestly* thought was an image of Christ, and in his enthusiasm deceived alot of people.

Just cuz something is not what it's made out to be, doesn't mean it was a deliberate "hoax".

[LadyPilgrim]

I have read that Scripture and agree with you.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:16 & 17

God has not left us without His Truth!

[Alberta's Child]

I don't know enough about carbon dating to comment one way or another, but I do know that testing the Shroud using any such method is inherently risky because of the attempts that were made to repair the Shroud after it was damaged in a fire back in the Middle Ages.

[irish guard]

Since arriving in Turin in 1578, the Shroud has only been displayed a few times each century (see the Shroud History page). Both reasons you stated are probably correct. Security is always a problem with the Shroud. For example, there is strong belief by the authorities in Turin that the April 1997 fire in the Chapel, Cathedral and Royal Palace was intentionally set by an arsonist. In 1978, during a 5 week exhibition, 3.5 million visitors flocked to the city to view the cloth. Organizing such events is always a problem. Most importantly however, exposing the cloth to polluted air and UV light during an exhibition can damage the cloth and the image as well. Even though the Shroud is now stored in a specially designed container to protect and preserve it, too much exhibiting may create serious long term conservation and preservation problems. The next public exhibition is scheduled in the year 2025

[cyncooper]

The Shroud is a proven fake -

No, it has not been *proven* a fake. The efforts to demonstrate it is a fake have been exposed as being flawed so the "mystery" remains.

[the OlLine Rebel]

"Point #1: If someone in the 12th century was intent on making a realistic forgery of Christ's burial shroud, then why would he depict the crucifixion in a manner that did not match the prevailing view of how the crucifixion occurred?"

Another thing I was going to mention. Heck, despite the Shroud and the adulation of it, we continue to depict hand wounds - even "the Passion of the Christ" continues this belief. Talk about unscientific!

[clyde260]

I want to believe, and wish this were the real deal, but here is my dilema:

The first thing we learned in navigation class is that maps are flat, and the earth is round. Take a round ball say, and unpeel it and try and lay it flat. Can't do it?

If the shroud really got it's image by resting on a round head, when laid flat the image on the cloth would be distorted right?

[cyncooper]

Did you forget that DaVince was playing around with photography way back then?

Since the shroud with its image does in fact pre-date DaVinci and nobody has ever reproduced a like image on a cloth, what is your point?

[Yaelle]

Are there any Jews living today that can trace their lineage that far back?

I think that the Lubavicher Rebbe could trace his lineage back that far. I don't believe he, of blessed memory, had any children, but perhaps he had nephews or cousins?

[Qwinn]

"If Jesus rose again after 3 days, then how is that long enough to make a 2000 yearl old impression in cloth????"

*smirk*

Okay, let me get this straight... you're willing to stipulate to the possibility of rising from the dead after 3 days... but you're simply -not- willing to go so far as to believe that such an event could leave an image on cloth?

Okaaaaay...

Qwinn