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Vatican Worries About Kerry
NewsMax.com ^ | 3/28/04 | Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff

Posted on 03/29/2004 12:38:30 AM PST by kattracks

John Kerry's support for abortion and gay marriage, both condemned as mortal sins by the Roman Catholic Church, is raising serious concerns in the Vatican over the clear apostasy of a nominal American Catholic politician.

"People in Rome are becoming more and more aware that there's a problem with John Kerry, and a potential scandal with his apparent profession of his Catholic faith and some of his stances, particularly abortion," a Vatican official and an American told Time magazine.

Taking such positions at odds with Church teaching could subject Kerry to excommunication, but the Massachusetts senator says he's comfortable with his stands even when they conflict with the doctrines of the Church to which he claims allegiance.

"I don't think it complicates things at all," Kerry told Time Saturday, the first article in which he has discussed his faith extensively. "We have a separation of church and state in this country. As John Kennedy said very clearly, I will be a President who happens to be Catholic, not a Catholic President."

Time, however, noted that there are huge differences between the time in which Kennedy ran and today. When Kennedy ran for president in 1960, Time recalls, "a candidate could go through an entire campaign without ever having to declare his position on abortion – much less stem cells, cloning or gay marriage. It was before Roe v. Wade, bioethics, school vouchers, gay rights and a host of other social issues became the ideological fault lines that divide the two political parties and also divide some Catholics from their church."

Kerry, a former altar boy who Time says complains when his campaign staff does not leave time in his Sunday schedule for Mass and receives Communion, describes himself as a "believing and practicing Catholic, married to another believing and practicing Catholic."

In the face of that declaration, however, last week he went out of his way to show up on the Senate floor to vote against the Unborn Victims of Violence Act ("Laci and Connor's Law"), a bill that would make harming an unborn child during the commission of a crime a separate offense. The bill was named for Laci Peterson and her unborn son, Connor, who were murdered.

As Time observed, Kerry's vote put him squarely on the same side as abortion industry supporters in opposing specific legal rights for the unborn – and against nearly two-thirds of his fellow senators and the great majority of Americans.

Kerry told Time his Catholic faith was instilled in him in childhood. He even took the opportunity to raise the subject of his four months of service in Vietnam once again, claiming that he wore a rosary around his neck when involved in combat operations.

When Kerry got home, however, he admits to having gone through what he described to Time as a "period of a little bit of anger and agnosticism, but subsequently, I did a lot of reading and a lot of thinking and really came to understand how all those terrible things fit."

Kerry and other nominally Catholic politicians insist that their religious faith does not oblige them to follow the tenets of their Church when acting as elected representatives. As Time notes, politicians taking that position provoked New York's Archbishop John Cardinal O'Connor in 1984 to chastise then-New York Gov. Mario Cuomo and Democratic vice presidential nominee Geraldine Ferraro for being in favor of abortion.

Times have changed. In response to the demands of huge numbers of the Roman Catholic faithful that Catholic bishops in America clamp down on politicians thumbing their noses at Church doctrine in their public lives, the Church is, as Time notes, getting tougher.

Last year, for example the Vatican issued a "doctrinal note" warning Catholic lawmakers that they have a "grave and clear obligation to oppose any law that attacks human life. For them, as for every Catholic, it is impossible to promote such laws or to vote for them."

Moreover, when Kerry campaigned in Missouri in February, St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke publicly warned him "not to present himself for Communion" — an ostracism, Time explained, that Canon Law 915 reserves for "those who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin." A defiant Kerry told Time that regarding his planned trip to St. Louis last Sunday, "I certainly intend to take Communion and continue to go to Mass as a Catholic."

According to Time, most Catholic officials believe that the Church's response to Kerry's candidacy will vary from diocese to diocese. "You may not see many Catholic bishops appearing at Kerry photo ops this campaign season, and there's a possibility of some uncomfortable moments on the trail. All you need is a picture of Kerry going up to the Communion rail and being denied, and you've got a story that'll last for weeks," Father Thomas Reese, editor of the Jesuit magazine America, told Time.

Even in his own Boston archdiocese, Kerry will face his newly hard-nosed archbishop, Sean O'Malley, who, although he has given Kerry Communion in the past, now says that Catholic politicians who do not vote in line with Church teachings "shouldn't dare come to Communion."

Being banned from receiving the Eucharist is excommunication.

Said Kerry, "I don't tell church officials what to do, and church officials shouldn't tell American politicians what to do in the context of our public life."

As Crisis magazine noted last May, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) in November 1998 released a pastoral letter, "Living the Gospel of Life: A Challenge to American Catholics," that castigated Catholic politicians for supporting abortion and euthanasia.

On Jan. 16, Bishop Wilton D. Gregory, president of the USCCB, issued a statement welcoming the doctrinal note issued by the Vatican that denounced Catholic politicians who favor abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage and human cloning. Said Bishop Gregory, "Catholic politicians cannot subscribe to any notion which equates freedom or democracy with a moral relativism that denies these moral principles.”

Both of these statements flow naturally from the seriousness the Catholic hierarchy attaches to abortion in particular. As early as 1975, the bishops described the right to life as "among basic human rights."



TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2004; catholicpoliticians; catholicvote; kerry; kerryandgod; vatican
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1 posted on 03/29/2004 12:38:30 AM PST by kattracks
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To: kattracks
Kerry is free to believe whatever he wishes. On the other hand, the Church is free to excommunicate him because of those beliefs. Kerry is intentionally being a putz by pretending separation of church and state is relevant to this issue.
2 posted on 03/29/2004 12:43:59 AM PST by Young Rhino (http://www.artofdivorce.com)
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To: kattracks
"Said Kerry, "I don't tell church officials what to do, and church officials shouldn't tell American politicians what to do in the context of our public life."

He's not telling you you can't vote for abortion, Kerry. He's telling you that if you do, you can't go to a Catholic Church and demand Communion, and they will make sure that everyone knows that when you claim to be a Catholic, that the Church's position is that you are -not-. They have the right to do that. You do not get to dictate who is and who isn't Catholic. If you could, well, you'd be the Pope.

Qwinn
3 posted on 03/29/2004 12:44:01 AM PST by Qwinn
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To: kattracks
Vatican Worries About Kerry

Ah, for once the Pope and I see eye-to-eye on something.
4 posted on 03/29/2004 12:44:26 AM PST by KangarooJacqui (Living next to the biggest Islamic country on earth, don't all Aussies deserve danger money?)
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To: kattracks
Any chance that he's gonna get excommunicated?

I don't actually think that would be good from a religious standpoint, I believe it's more important to be inclusive and let God sort out the rest, but it would be great from an election point of view.

5 posted on 03/29/2004 12:45:34 AM PST by zbigreddogz
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To: kattracks
Interesting. He claims to be a Catholic but doesn't follow the Church's teachings, principles, or ethical code. When questioned, he claims that there is a seperation of church and state. An excommunication would be hysterical.

APf
6 posted on 03/29/2004 12:47:50 AM PST by APFel
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To: kattracks; nuconvert
Is this good or bad?
Since the Vatican not exactly has the highest ethical standards (treatment of priests involved with boys)I am not sure if this will increase or reduce the support of Kerry.

Any PR consultant around that can comment?
7 posted on 03/29/2004 12:47:53 AM PST by AdmSmith
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To: Young Rhino
I was disappointed to read that the Catholic Church granted Kerry an annulment of his 18 year old Catholic marriage (with children):
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37755
8 posted on 03/29/2004 2:50:37 AM PST by John Thornton
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To: kattracks
"We have a separation of church and state in this country." WHAT does that have to do with the issue at hand???? The issue is that Kerry is either a Catholic or he isn't. And obviously, he isn't.

And Kennedy was actually saying that he wouldn't let the Church rule this country. If abortion had been an issue at that time, Kennedy would have had to make a statement as to his beliefs. Lucky for him it was not an issue.
9 posted on 03/29/2004 3:05:22 AM PST by kitkat
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To: John Thornton
I was disappointed to read that the Catholic Church granted Kerry an annulment of his 18 year old Catholic marriage (with children):

Wealthy Massachuttes politicians have regularly gotten annulments. Maybe that will change with Archbishop Sean O’Malley. Meanwhile the unasked questions for Kerry are:

Doesn’t your annulment mean that your first marriage never existed? … Doesn’t that mean that your children are illegitimate?

10 posted on 03/29/2004 3:21:19 AM PST by bimbo
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To: John Thornton
I believe that Kerry has supported abortion his entire Senate career. Why would the Church grant him an annulment when he was an abortion crusader? Would it do it today if a similar Catholic politician asked for one?
11 posted on 03/29/2004 3:21:25 AM PST by John Thornton
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To: bimbo
It sounds like the Massachusetts Catholic Church existed on two pillars: Protect child abusing priests and service the needs of Catholic politicians.
12 posted on 03/29/2004 3:23:48 AM PST by John Thornton
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To: John Thornton
The annulment is disappointing. I find it interesting that the one daughter is out on the campaign trail trashing Bush on Kerry's behalf. In her shoes, I'd slap Kerry for making her illegitimate in the eyes of the Church.
13 posted on 03/29/2004 3:24:20 AM PST by Young Rhino (http://www.artofdivorce.com)
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To: John Thornton
Why would the Church grant him an annulment when he was an abortion crusader? Would it do it today if a similar Catholic politician asked for one?

Wealthy Massachuttes politicians have regularly gotten annulments.

It is tempting to believe there is some particular corruption associated with wealth and annulments, or being a RAT politician and annulments, but the truth is that the rejection rate is very low (if not zero), and that Kerry, Kennedy, and all the others got annulments because everyone gets annulments.

14 posted on 03/29/2004 3:26:21 AM PST by Jim Noble (Now you go feed those hogs before they worry themselves into anemia!)
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To: kattracks; Victoria Delsoul; kstewskis; GirlShortstop; lonevoice; ILBBACH; Salvation; ...
Kerry's arrogance is mind-boggling!

"I don't tell church officials what to do, and church officials shouldn't tell American politicians what to do in the context of our public life."

Oh really... I guess John then it means you don't have to suscribe to the doctrine of the church, or the teachings of Christ, or the Ten Commandments. It crimps your style, John?

What an absolute smug attitude.

No wonder you're so lost.

Tell me John, just when did you decide to sell your soul?

Satan must be howling with delight!

15 posted on 03/29/2004 3:42:11 AM PST by Northern Yankee ( "Behold Mother... I make all things new." - Jesus of Nazareth)
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To: kattracks; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp IV; narses; ...
Last year, for example the Vatican issued a "doctrinal note" warning Catholic lawmakers that they have a "grave and clear obligation to oppose any law that attacks human life. For them, as for every Catholic, it is impossible to promote such laws or to vote for them."

Faith in Jesus Christ, who is «the way, the truth, and the life»(Jn 14:6), calls Christians to exert a greater effort in building a culture which, inspired by the Gospel, will reclaim the values and contents of the Catholic Tradition. 
The Participation of Catholics in Political Life

In the Catholic tradition, responsible citizenship is a virtue; participation in the political process is a moral obligation.


Faithful Citizenship: A Catholic Call to Political Responsibility

Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list


16 posted on 03/29/2004 3:42:57 AM PST by NYer (Prayer is the Strength of the Weak)
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To: NYer
Glad you saw this.

I can't imagine the arrogance here.

Kerry's basically telling all practicing Catholics that church doctrine only applies to them, and not the supreme, arrogant politicians.

I think every Catholic publication in the United States ought to print his comments, and then see how good, practicing Catholics respond come election time.

17 posted on 03/29/2004 3:59:19 AM PST by Northern Yankee ( "Behold Mother... I make all things new." - Jesus of Nazareth)
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To: kattracks
Being banned from receiving the Eucharist is excommunication.

Actually, it's not.

Being banned from communion means that you are in a state of mortal sin. Indeed, since Kerry's first marriage has not been annulled, he shouldn't be receiving communion, since he is living in sin...there is a line from Paul that says you shouldn't receive the bread and wine "unworthily"...

For all that is written about JFK, I remember back then he never went to communion, although he usually went to church...so when I heard about his girlfriends, I figured that was the reason why...Kerry doesn't have that problem. He obviously doesn't think receiving the bread and wine is receiving the body and blood of Christ...imagine meeting Christ and saying: Yes, I am your follower, but I will help people murder babies if they chose to do so....

18 posted on 03/29/2004 4:04:44 AM PST by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: LadyDoc
I think that Kerry's first marriage *has* been annulled? I'm sure he felt this was needed for his political viability--not because he was an actual believer in any Church doctrine.
19 posted on 03/29/2004 4:10:39 AM PST by John Thornton
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To: John Thornton
This got me wondering:

What was Kerry's relationship with the disgraced Cardinal Law of Boston?

20 posted on 03/29/2004 4:13:45 AM PST by John Thornton
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To: zbigreddogz
"but it would be great from an election point of view."

Oh, just like it was so bad for Clinton when he was asked not to associate hiomself with the Southern Baptist church. These RATs don't care. To them, God is just a convenient campaign tool.

21 posted on 03/29/2004 4:17:05 AM PST by sweetliberty ("Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.")
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To: John Thornton; bimbo
'Follow the money.'
The Boston hierarchy has been in the wallets of Boston politicians since the last century.
22 posted on 03/29/2004 5:05:13 AM PST by NHResident
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To: hobbes1; dubyaismypresident; secret garden
ping.
23 posted on 03/29/2004 5:07:49 AM PST by xsmommy
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To: kattracks
I hate to see this happen, but somebody, either O'Malley or the Vatican, is going to have to publicly excommunicate Kerry. We haven't had a good public bull in a long time.

I don't particularly care about the annulment thing. I know enough people who's marriages were annulled or annulments rejected to know that they are granted for reasons that most people would not consider, i.e., one partner is unfit for it, there was never any intention on one side or another to remain married or faithful, refusal of children, etc. The grounds have never been exposed. They rarely are.

What bothers me is the posturing and using the label "Catholic" for political purposes. We are not to do that. We are to live our lives by a code stemming from he faith and at this point Kerry has demonstrated publicly that he has not and will not do that. I hope that O'Malley publicly rebukes him for that.
24 posted on 03/29/2004 5:10:21 AM PST by Desdemona (Contemplating kosher Easter cookies as seen on the Home Shopping Network.)
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To: kattracks
Well if they had done something about Teddy or the rest of the hypocritical Kennedy clan back when they may have some credibility

But they have been silent too long
25 posted on 03/29/2004 5:10:56 AM PST by uncbob
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To: kattracks
"...a picture of Kerry going up to the Communion rail and being denied, and you've got a story that'll last for weeks," Father Thomas Reese, editor of the Jesuit magazine America, told Time."

From his mouth to God's ears!

26 posted on 03/29/2004 5:11:51 AM PST by TrueBeliever9
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To: kattracks
Well Al Querry just kissed some catholic votes good bye
27 posted on 03/29/2004 5:24:25 AM PST by 1903A3
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To: TrueBeliever9
Am I the only person to notice that Kerry is holier than thou when it comes to his idea of how we are to show our compassion toward the poor (through more government programs), quoting the Bible, right inside a church, and in the context of attcking his political opponents; but, when it comes to the official teachings on human life issues of the denomination to which he belongs, he says to church officials, butt out?

I should also point out that the Catholic Church, to which Kerry "happens to be" a member, does not teach his (Kerry's) doctrine of how we are to show our compassion toward the poor. The Catholic Church is totally o.k. with our American system and a variety of other systems, involving various mixes of public and private support for the poor. What is important is that we DO care for the poor. But, how we care for the poor, and how we distinguish between those deserving of our support and those who should support themselves, these are matters that we, each of us individually and as members of society, have to figure out.

Sometimes I think that the only thing bigger than Kerry's arrogance is his chin, and sometimes I think the opposite!
28 posted on 03/29/2004 5:30:34 AM PST by Redmen4ever
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To: kattracks
The Vatican is a witness to the withering of faith in Europe while socialist politicians and their public schools rose in triumph. Now shall the Vatican stand by while the same pukes repeat their sins in the United States where 60 million Catholics reside. The Vatican has everything to gain by denouncing Kerry.
29 posted on 03/29/2004 5:36:18 AM PST by reed_inthe_wind (Vienna said the middlemen come from Ger, Nether,Belg, S Af, Jap,Dub, Mal,USA,Rus,Chin,and Pak.)
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To: xsmommy
O'Malley plans to start enforcing his opinion after admittedly not doing so in the past and Kerry shows himself to think he is mightier than his church. smh
30 posted on 03/29/2004 5:52:24 AM PST by secret garden (Go Predators! Go Spurs!)
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To: kattracks
I hate to have to tell the folks at the Vatican, but Kerry's support for abortion and gay marriage is not the biggest concern they should have about him.
31 posted on 03/29/2004 6:00:21 AM PST by Savage Beast (Wasn't "Love Story" written about Kerry? Or was it "Washington Square"?)
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To: xsmommy
And considering that Kerry the A*hole, opened up the religious debate, I think it is time for someone to challenge him on the adhherence to his "alleged' faith.
32 posted on 03/29/2004 6:03:08 AM PST by hobbes1 (Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
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To: xsmommy
AND HERE IS A LEGITIMATE POINT TO BE RAISED.

Moreover, when Kerry campaigned in Missouri in February, St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke publicly warned him "not to present himself for Communion" — an ostracism, Time explained, that Canon Law 915 reserves for "those who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin." A defiant Kerry told Time that regarding his planned trip to St. Louis last Sunday, "I certainly intend to take Communion and continue to go to Mass as a Catholic."

So, then, it is OK for Candidate Kerry to put a priests standing with his Bishop in jeopardy, to suit his campaign purposes?

33 posted on 03/29/2004 6:05:43 AM PST by hobbes1 (Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
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To: dubyaismypresident
*ping above.
34 posted on 03/29/2004 6:06:20 AM PST by hobbes1 (Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
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To: zbigreddogz
He's been de facto excommunicated already, given his staunch pro-abortion position. According to Catholic doctrine, he has rejected Catholicism by being in favor of abortion. Thus, unless he seeks Penance and Reconciliation, he is not accepted as a member of the Church, and he CANNOT receive the sacrament of the Eucharist. If he does take communion, knowing that his pro-abortion stance is anathema to the Church, he not only compounds his sin but ridicules the Eucharist, which is blasphemy.
35 posted on 03/29/2004 6:06:44 AM PST by ought-six
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To: hobbes1
no. it is not ok. he needs excommunicated.
36 posted on 03/29/2004 6:07:06 AM PST by xsmommy
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To: xsmommy
Yes, right around Halloween.
37 posted on 03/29/2004 6:12:56 AM PST by hobbes1 (Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
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To: hobbes1
If Jaque F. Kerry thinks he can pull his lame "bring it on" slogan with Bishop Burke, he's got another thing coming.
38 posted on 03/29/2004 6:13:00 AM PST by NeoCaveman (Hey John F'in. Kerry, why the long face?)
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To: kattracks
As early as 1975, the bishops described the right to life as "among basic human rights."
Among? Considering that life is the sine qua non of all other rights, I'm surprised the bishops didn't call the right to life the basic human right.
39 posted on 03/29/2004 6:40:35 AM PST by eastsider
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To: 1903A3
Well Al Querry just kissed some catholic votes good bye

I wish I could believe Kerry would lose some Catholic votes, but I think any Catholic who is seriously thinking of voting for the abortion-loving Kerry will not be dissuaded by anything that Kerry does or says regarding religion. Any self identified Catholic who could vote for Kerry has placed worldly interests ahead of his or her own soul.

Here's John F'n Kerry in his own words:

“Abortions need to be moved out of the fringes of medicine and into the mainstream of medical practice. And by the same token, if our children are to be safe from the danger of fanaticism, tolerance needs to spread out of the mainstream churches, mosques, and synagogues, and into the religious fringes." (from the congressional record)

"I am prepared to filibuster, if necessary, any Supreme Court nominee who would turn back the clock on a woman's right to choose [abortion]” (Drake Law School, 2003)

40 posted on 03/29/2004 6:57:01 AM PST by old and tired (Go Toomey! Send Specter back to the Highlands!)
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To: zbigreddogz
I don't actually think that would be good from a religious standpoint, I believe it's more important to be inclusive and let God sort out the rest,

The purpose of a public excommunication is to remind a public, flagrant, and unrepentant sinner that he is, in fact, publicly, flagrantly, and unrepentantly sinning. It is hoped that by excommunicating him he will be called to repentance (excommunication can be lifted), and that the faithful (and the unfaithful as well) will not be scandalized by his behaviour. Mr. Kerry's behaviour is certainly causing public scandal.

41 posted on 03/29/2004 7:36:13 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Chief Engineer, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemens' Club)
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To: ArrogantBustard
When this hypocrite threw in the line of wearing a rosary around his neck during his tour of vietnam right then and there he proved he has no knowledge of the rules of the CATHOLIC church ,they are to be keeped in your pocket or if you are a PRIEST or NUN they are worn around the waist, the little people of the church remember these nuances.
42 posted on 03/29/2004 7:58:13 AM PST by douglas1 (i CANNOT IMAGINE)
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To: kattracks
I would have to ask if kerry is allowed to recieve the host then why cant I, why cant a lot of people who have married outside the church recieve the host, I could never go to the alter and accept the body of CHRIST ,where does kerry get off doing this ,once I married outside the church I was no longer a CATHOLIC ,I tried to rectify the problem and it did not work out ,so maybe the church is worried thata lot of people out there like myself will follow kerrys lead ,I cannot believe that anyone would knowingly try to decieve CHRIST.
43 posted on 03/29/2004 8:14:20 AM PST by douglas1 (i CANNOT IMAGINE)
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To: hobbes1
Do you think any diocese would consider an October surprise?
44 posted on 03/29/2004 8:22:41 AM PST by secret garden (Go Predators! Go Spurs!)
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To: secret garden
No.....sadly.
45 posted on 03/29/2004 8:25:05 AM PST by hobbes1 (Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
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To: sweetliberty; billbears
To them, God is just a convenient campaign tool.

You are right on, s/l.

46 posted on 03/29/2004 8:25:08 AM PST by stainlessbanner
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To: kattracks
Kerry gets upset when his staff doesn't leave time in his schedule for him to go to mass? Yeah, right. Excuse me while I go puke. He came to mass a week ago ten minutes late and wearing a ski suit.
47 posted on 03/29/2004 8:26:08 AM PST by Ciexyz
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To: TrueBeliever9
"...a picture of Kerry going up to the Communion rail and being denied, and you've got a story that'll last for weeks," Father Thomas Reese, editor of the Jesuit magazine America, told Time."

The priest should not give him communion, but offer him a blessing. That is what is done for non-Catholics; they approach the priest at communion in a different posture (arms crossed) to receive a blessing instead. Then the church can issue a statement that he is not to receive communion, not in good standing, but that the church is praying he will repent. That approach would avoid the image of him being "turned away." Of course, Kerry will probably try to turn the "blessing" into an endorsement by the Catholic church.

48 posted on 03/29/2004 8:31:05 AM PST by GraceCoolidge
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To: hobbes1
I feel your pain. Seriously, with all the crapola my church has been going through it can be very frustrating to watch people who are entrusted to lead just crumble when put to the test. However, their cowardice shouldn't stop our efforts. The letter writing and public questioning will continue.
49 posted on 03/29/2004 8:32:33 AM PST by secret garden (Go Predators! Go Spurs!)
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To: zbigreddogz
I don't actually think that would be good from a religious standpoint, I believe it's more important to be inclusive and let God sort out the rest, but it would be great from an election point of view.

Then why have any standards in a faith at all? If church should just be "inclusive," then why speak out against any conduct... adultery, racism, abortion, homosexuality, anything? I am sure there are faiths that adopt this point of view, but I think it is up to people who believe in that approach to seek out and embrace those faith(s). Kerry should stop proclaiming himself a Catholic and find a faith consistent with his own views. Saying he's a Catholic and defying the most basic tenets of the church shows the standard John Kerry mixture of hypocrisy and arrogance.

50 posted on 03/29/2004 8:36:59 AM PST by GraceCoolidge
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