Posted on 03/17/2004 2:09:23 PM PST by presidio9
2 Macabbees 1239 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.
40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.
41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.
42 7 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
I've never heard this story from Macabbees in Church. Probably because it's so gruesome.
There was no Hebrew canon in Jesus' time. Various groups used different collections of Scripture. The Saducees only accepted the Torah. Jesus and the Apostles refer to the Septuagint in the New Testament.
Like that saying "It doesn't matter or not whether you believe in G-d; He believes in you." Live according to Him and faith should follow but does not have to.
Don't Orthodox Jews pray for the dead?
See POST 61
The story of the Maccabees is a time bomb.
It is the history of the mass slaughter of Jews, by their fellow Jews, during that 2nd Century BC rebellion that freed the nation of Israel from Greek rule. Many Jews today bitterly refuse to celebrate Hanukkah for this very reason.
In today's terms, that battle was a conflict between the orthodox or conservative Jews versus the "progressive", non-observant or non-religious Jews. Conservative versus liberal.
If this movie is made, it will likely reopen massive wounds within the Jewish community, itself rather than between the Christian and Jewish communities.
In my opinion, this is the principle reason why Abe Foxman (Executive Director of ADL) objects to Gibson making this movie saying, "The Maccabees ... are our sacred history" and that if Gibson produces it, "we'll lose."
What you mean "we", Abe?!
--Boot Hill
Don't (even if you did misspell "stupid" ;) ). Most Protestants don't keep up on Catholic beliefs either.
But no, we don't believe in Purgatory. We believe that all sins were paid for by Christ on the Cross, so if you put your trust in your salvation in Him, there is no need to be "purged" of them before entering into Heaven. As Jesus said to the thief and murderer that hung beside Him, a man who had taken exactly zero of the sacraments and whose only "work" was asking just that Jesus would remember him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Lk. 23:43).
I had a good, congenial conversation with George Wythe on the subject of why Protestants reject books like the Maccabees as canon even though we regard them as useful historical texts over here (I've addressed the link to the last post in the conversation so that you can just follow the "To" links back up to the beginning instead of having to search the whole thread). It's not meant to convince you, just to explain where we're coming from.
Purgatory is from "Purged", right? If you die with a/some venial sins on your soul that you didn't repent for, you spend some time in Purgatory before you are released to go to heaven.
Prayers from the living for your soul cut down on the time in purgatory...right?
I am totally missing something from Maccabbees......
I have to listen to the 3rd hour online streaming. No mention of the "going into Iraq" part that I could hear eather. My AM station drops out at around 6:00 p.m. and they broadcast the 3rd hour after their "6 o'clock news hour". On that day, the AM signal stayed up, so I listened to the interview again (twice within 2 hours).
The whole issue of politics was the shortest part of the interview which lasted about 2 minutes [more or less]. Sean asked Mel if he was conservative (actually said you are aren't you?) and support the President, to which Mel replied somethinng to the effect that he was gennerally supportive and that the President has done a lot of great things in his opinion, but that he'd been having his doubts of late over the whole WMDs, and them not being found thing...to which Sean replied that they were probably shipped to Syria and that he would like to enlighten him further some other time. So, as long as that took to read was about as long as the whole "political" part of the interview lasted if I remember accurately.
Prayers from the living for your soul cut down on the time in purgatory...right?
Right. Just put quotes around "time." No one knows how it's done, but your description of it as a state of purgation is very good.
In the passage the good Judas offers sacrifices and prayers for the dead (the soldiers who died wearing amulets superstitiously). The passage indicates that it is a good practice.
Hebrews 11
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise...
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[5]
32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets,
33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions,
34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies.
35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison.
37They were stoned[6] ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated--
38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.
40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.2 Maccabees 7
1 It also happened that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king, to force them to eat pork in violation of God's law.
2 One of the brothers, speaking for the others, said: "What do you expect to achieve by questioning us? We are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our ancestors."
3 At that the king, in a fury, gave orders to have pans and caldrons heated.
4 While they were being quickly heated, he commanded his executioners to cut out the tongue of the one who had spoken for the others, to scalp him and cut off his hands and feet, while the rest of his brothers and his mother looked on.
5 When he was completely maimed but still breathing, the king ordered them to carry him to the fire and fry him. As a cloud of smoke spread from the pan, the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die bravely, saying such words as these:
6 "The Lord God is looking on, and he truly has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his canticle, when he protested openly with the words, 'And he will have pity on his servants.'"
7 When the first brother had died in this manner, they brought the second to be made sport of...After him they brought the sixth brother. When he was about to die, he said: "Have no vain illusions. We suffer these things on our own account, because we have sinned against our God; that is why such astonishing things have happened to us.
19 Do not think, then, that you will go unpunished for having dared to fight against God."
20 Most admirable and worthy of everlasting remembrance was the mother, who saw her seven sons perish in a single day, yet bore it courageously because of her hope in the Lord.
21 Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly heart with manly courage, she exhorted each of them in the language of their forefathers with these words: 22 "I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed.
23 Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man's beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law."
24 Antiochus, suspecting insult in her words, thought he was being ridiculed. As the youngest brother was still alive, the king appealed to him, not with mere words, but with promises on oath, to make him rich and happy if he would abandon his ancestral customs: he would make him his Friend and entrust him with high office.
25 When the youth paid no attention to him at all, the king appealed to the mother, urging her to advise her boy to save his life.
26 After he had urged her for a long time, she went through the motions of persuading her son.
27 In derision of the cruel tyrant, she leaned over close to her son and said in their native language: "Son, have pity on me, who carried you in my womb for nine months, nursed you for three years, brought you up, educated and supported you to your present age.
28 2 I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things; and in the same way the human race came into existence.
29 Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them."
30 She had scarcely finished speaking when the youth said: "What are you waiting for? I will not obey the king's command. I obey the command of the law given to our forefathers through Moses.
31 But you, who have contrived every kind of affliction for the Hebrews, will not escape the hands of God.
32 We, indeed, are suffering because of our sins...39 At that, the king became enraged and treated him even worse than the others, since he bitterly resented the boy's contempt.
40 Thus he too died undefiled, putting all his trust in the Lord.
41 The mother was last to die, after her sons.
42 Enough has been said about the sacrificial meals and the excessive cruelties.
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