NRA Director Sen. Larry Craig's Ammunition Ban Amendment

KeepAndBearArms.com ^ | February 26, 2004 | Angel Shamaya

[archy]

About the only thing you need armor piercing ammunition for is killing cops.

Well, we sure wouldn't want THAT to happen....Why, that could keep them from obeying their orders and doing their jobs!

[Shooter 2.5]

Yep, the yappy little dogs are out there again. They keep getting their news from crappy little web sites that have no idea what's going on.
They hate the NRA but they can't tell you what their gun group does.
They hate the Republicans but they want the dems back into power.
They complain they have Boxer, Feinstein or Schumer as senators but they won't sent phone calls, e mails or faxes.

[archy]

Can't work in the garden for more than a half hour or so without popping a nitro under my tongue as I lay on the dirt sucking air through my teeth wondering if this'll be the time I don't get up again. ... .

I worry about the next generation, and those that follow them. What can I do about it? Realistically, nothing, other than blab here, for all the good it does.

You can set an example for others who'll follow in your footsteps, some of whom will face harder things than you're dealing with, most of whom hopefully will not.

But perhaps even aftter you're gone from this world and its pain and torments, some of those flowers in your garden you've planted may bloom again, or even propagate and spread, with their beauty remaining for others who never knew you- a gift for strangers. Some will appreciate it, some not.

Indeed, that's all ANY of us can do while we're here. I don't know for certain how good a job I've done myself, but I know one thing:

I'm glad I have the example you've set to follow. I hope to see you around someday, some other time or place, or under circumstances where time and places may not matter for much.

Thanks for the flowers in your garden, my FRiend.

-archy-/-

[Leatherneck_MT]

"About the only thing you need armor piercing ammunition for is killing cops."

you forgot

when they come to confiscate your weapons.

[suijuris]

but you don't need an armor piercing bullet to defend your home, go hunting, or form the citizen's militia that defends against government oppression.

Bet they could have used some armour piercing ammo in Warsaw.

[Triple]

"you don't need an armor piercing bullet to defend your home" - C.H.

You do when the folks busting into your home, or occupying your town are wearing vests.

Perhaps you can handle them with a sharpened spoon, but as for me, a member of the unorganized militia, I want the most effective weapons possible at my disposal.

[HenryLeeII]

Almost all centerfire rifle ammo will cut through kevlar like a knife through butter. What are the specifics [for banning ammo in] this bill?

All centerfire rifle ammo that will cut through kevlar like a knife through butter. Next question...oh, I almost forgot, you'll have to register all firearms so a newly-created federal agency can come in quarterly and make sure you're storing them properly in a locked cabinet with a trigger guard, with the ammunition stored in a locked cabinet that falls outside a 25-mile radius of said gun cabinet, or in a qualifying federal, state, or municipal government facility. Now, next question...

[Condor51]

A couple things;

First of all this 'amendment' would be unconstitutional if one followed the SCOTUS decision back in the 1930's which pertained to that guy who had the sawed-off shotgun.

Basically SCOTUS ruled that since a sawed-off shotgun was not a military type weapon and unfit for 'militia' use as referenced in the 2nd Amendment, they could be ruled illegal to possess. In effect SCOTUS ruled (hinted) only Military Type Weapons were legal and covered by 2nd Amendment protection.

Now I personally think that's an asinine ruling - But it is legal precedent.

I'm sure there plenty of Freepers more familiar with this rulings details, so please correct me if I'm wrong on a point or two.

Oh, and this is one reason why I became an ATF licensed collector (C&R) of military weapons - they're constitutionally protected by that SCOTUS ruling. The gubmint may take your Remington 700 but my 8mm Mauser, 9mm Star (Bulgarian Secret Police) & 9mm Makarov (East German Stasi) are untouchable. Then there's the SKS, Enfield, Mosin-Nagant which are also covered. And when I get some extra bucks an SKS will be my next purchase.

BTW, I just did a Google search for 'armor piercing ammo' and it can be bought by the truck load. Along with tracer ammo and other good stuff. Here's a link - Happy Shopping.

AMMO

[wysiwyg]

iow they can't get the guns so they are getting the bullets? This reminds me of monahan's tax bullets to death.

Exactly. Why the NRA keeps supporting this is beyond me. Suggestion to all 2A supporters: Join GOA.

[Little Ray]

It ain't about Armor Piercing ammo. It is about being able to call some type of ammo "armor piercing" and ban it.
The gun control fascists would love to be able to call all jacketed ammo "armor piercing" and ban it. They they would ban all lead ammo under EPA regulations...

Simple fact is, few or no cops have been killed by AP ammo and there is no need for a "ban."

[Dan from Michigan]

This does not ban any new ammo - That's KENNEDY's amendment.

SA 2625. Mr. CRAIG (for Mr. FRIST (for himself and Mr. CRAIG)) proposed an amendment to the bill S. 1805, to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages resulting from the misuse of their products by others; as follows:

At the appropriate place, add the following:

SEC. 5. ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION.

(a) UNLAWFUL ACTS.--Section 922(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by striking paragraphs (7) and (8) and inserting the following:

``(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, unless--

``(A) the manufacture of such ammunition is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political subdivision of a State;

``(B) the manufacture of such ammunition is for the purpose of exportation; or

``(C) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized by the Attorney General.

``(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, unless such sale or delivery--

``(A) is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political subdivision of a State;

``(B) is for the purpose of exportation; or

``(C) is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized by the Attorney General.''.

(b) PENALTIES.--Section 924(c) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

``(5) Except to the extent that a greater minimum sentence is otherwise provided under this subsection, or by any other provision of law, any person who, during and in relation to any crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime that provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries armor piercing ammunition, or who, in furtherance of any such crime, possesses armor piercing ammunition, shall, in addition to the punishment provided for such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime or conviction under this section--

``(A) be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 15 years;

``(B) if death results from the use of such ammunition--

``(i) if the killing is murder (as defined in section 1111), be punished by death or sentenced to a term of imprisonment for any term of years or for life; and

``(ii) if the killing is manslaughter (as defined in section 1112), be punished as provided in section 1112.''.

(c) STUDY AND REPORT.--

(1) STUDY.--The Attorney General shall conduct a study to determine whether a uniform standard for the uniform testing of projectiles against Body Armor is feasible.

(2) ISSUES TO BE STUDIED.--The study conducted under paragraph (1) shall include--

(A) variations in performance that are related to the length of the barrel of the handgun or centerfire rifle from which the projectile is fired; and

(B) the amount of powder used to propel the projectile.

(3) REPORT.--Not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of this Act, the Attorney General shall submit a report containing the results of the study conducted under this subsection to--

(A) the chairman and ranking member of the Judiciary Committee of the Senate; and

(B) the chairman and ranking member of the Judiciary Committee of the House of Representatives.

----------------------

This is just some BS study wasting my tax money. It's bad, but not as bad as KABA says.

[Dan from Michigan]

If you are a hunter, you have armor piercing ammo.

Almost anything 'centerfire' is "armor piercing". My uncle got a deer with a .30-30(A basic hunting round), which was specificly mentioned by Ted Kennedy. .30-06 is another hunting round....also used by the US Military in M1-Garands.

[B4Ranch]

"Once the study is done and the results have been handed to the media regarding "cop-killer" bullets the momentum will have already carried us across the Rubicon and the bridge will be ready to torch."

The bridge is already burning!

[Dead Corpse]

A) variations in performance that are related to the length of the barrel of the handgun or centerfire rifle from which the projectile is fired; and

Sets up a performance standard where the previous ban was on specific design. Not good considering the penetration power of most hunting ammo. And yes, it seems a small thing, but it will be all they need. Bank on it.

[Sender]

The military may define "armor-piercing" ammo as hardened or explosive projectiles meant for penetrating metallic armor, but you can be sure that is not how Kennedy or Feinstein defines "armor-piercing" ammo. Clearly this is a ploy to make practically all centerfire rifles demonized and unusable.

Also the "enhanced sentencing for use of AP ammo" is a Trojan horse akin to "hate crimes" or "hate speech" legislation. The Feds just love "sentence enhancers". That way, they can ignore these laws until you become a person of interest to them. Then if they want to put the heat on you to become an informant or whatever, they can just look around your otherwise legal and uneventful life and find all sorts of potential reasons to put you in prison for years. "Hey, looks like this guy owns a rifle with a bayonet lug, and some surplus Chinese ammo. He's in the bag! He'll do anything we want."

[JamesA]

"MOLON LABE" nuff said;

[Shooter 2.5]

When someone says they support gun rights in their first sentences, it's usually proven they don't. You can save some key strokes by not even bothering to write it.

[Dan from Michigan]

Frist and Craig are taking a risky strategy to undermine the anti's with 'middle ground'. They took out two bad Amendments (Mikulski and Corzine's lawsuit exceptions), took Kohl's over Boxers which I THINK eliminated the CPSC part of the trigger lock part, and now the "study" to undermine Kennedy's ban.

What's the AW ban alternative or Gun show alternative bills?

And what's coming out of the conference committee? THOSE are my two key questions.

[Dead Corpse]

I'll keep my fingers crossed, but I gotta say... this isn't looking good so far.

[TigersEye]

Wouldn't the term be useless since the ATF will then determine what constitutes an AP projectile...

The term is quite useful for just that reason. Bureaucrats, BATFE and otherwise, as well as gun-control advocates and their media co-conspirators can apply the term "AP ammo" to any round that they can demonstrate to pierce body-armor. As you've seen testified to on this thread that covers virtually all centerfire rifle caliber hunting ammunition.

The smallest (or least powerful) small arms ammo that the military designates as AP is 30-06 as far as I know. It is not designed to defeat body-armor since even a pure soft-lead slug in 30-06 would do that quite nicely. It is designed to pierce the steel plated armor of combat vehicles and break down concrete block walls. True AP ammo offers no advantage in killing a man with body-armor on and is arguably less effective because it would travel clear through the body without expanding. IOW's deer hunting ammo is more lethal on a man wearing body-armor than true AP ammo. But that's not what they're going to be looking at is it?

Looks to me like they are trying to placate the Democrats into passing the Gun Manufacturer protection.

The 'gun locks for handguns' addition is a 'gimme' to placate the gun grabbers. It stinks because it raises the price of buying a gun but since using it isn't mandatory (AFAIK) it doesn't automatically endanger the gun owner. But banning any type of ammunition is not a compromise it is an infringement and an assault on weapons possession itself.