NRA Director Sen. Larry Craig's Ammunition Ban Amendment

KeepAndBearArms.com ^ | February 26, 2004 | Angel Shamaya

[TERMINATTOR]

Winchester SSP12 Supreme Partition Gold Slugs Second generation sabot slugs,in a 2 3/4 inch shell, and 385 grain (7/8 oz) hollowpoint slug. The slug is a copper jacketed 4-petal (notched hollowpoint) bullet of ~.50 caliber. It gives good expansion from the notched hollowpoint. The advertised velocity is 1900 fps at 3 ft. This is a "magic bullet", although at a high price. It performs admirably with less than 2 inch groups at 100 yards and 3-4 inch groups at 200 yards. This was in my Remington Wingmaster 12 gauge pump with Hastings 24" rifled barrel and 4-12x by 42 scope. I zeroed it at 150 yards, and the ballistics tables showed a 6.8 inch drop at 200 yards. Actual performance was a 7.1 inch drop at 200 yards. If one wants to shoot a tight group, then use all the shells from the same box, because I noticed slight differences between boxes even though they were from the same manufacturing lot (bought from different places). There is no shotgun slug that equals the performance of this Winchester SSP12 shell. In fact, the SSP12 gives a far smaller group at 200 yards than the premium Federal shells can do at 100 yards.

[Richard-SIA]

I found out a long time ago that 125 gr. soft point hunting ammo will easily pass through a 1/4" thick steel plate of cold rolled, at over two hundred yards!
This from an "obsolete" .303 British Enfield.

Virtually every center-fire soft point hunting cartridge on the market would be "armor-piercing" if evaluated only on the basis of it's ability to penetrate most types of "soft" armor, and many types of "hard" armor as well!

[spodefly]

I found out a long time ago that 125 gr. soft point hunting ammo will easily pass through a 1/4" thick steel plate of cold rolled, at over two hundred yards! This from an "obsolete" .303 British Enfield.

Whoa there tiger. Don't be callin' the .303 'obsolete'. My dad's 60 year old British .303 is one of the sweetest guns I have ever seen ... approx. 2moa, action smooth as butter, and with just the stock alone you could win 90% of the bar fights in the country.

As to the ammendment, I'll wait and read it before freaking out. It there is any momentum to start banning center-fire jacketed ammunition of any type, we have crossed the Rubicon.

[Don Joe]

I don't want to sound like Rosie O'Donnell (I strongly believe that "For every Jew, a 22"-- and fervently support gun rights), but you don't need an armor piercing bullet to defend your home, go hunting, or form the citizen's militia that defends against government oppression. About the only thing you need armor piercing ammunition for is killing cops.

First off, unless I'm mistaken, that quote ("For every Jew, a 22") originated with Kahane, who is by most accounting a somewhat less than stable hothead. Or was, that is. The point being that quoting it will not gain you much traction, and will only serve to paint you into a rhetorical corner.

Secondly, it's absurd at face value. It rhymes, yeah. That's the entire extent of its merit. The only things a .22 are good for are a) learning to shoot (on the cheap)/plinking; b) hunting squirrels and similar non-kosher small game; c) mafia-style executions (try persuading your legislator of that as a valid reason!); and d) pissing off a violent attacker.

Now, that out of the way, we're faced with the agitprop du jour.

The term "armor-piercing bullet", as defined by the legislators, outlaws all centerfire hunting ammunition, as well as the sabbotted shotgun slugs the poster above me mentioned. Most likely it'll also outlaw "traditional" shotgun slugs too, since they'll probably kill the wearer even if they don't "pierce" the vest. They pack a hell of a wallop at close range, even though they're useless at anything approaching "rifle distance".

Please don't buy into the propaganda -- either Kahane's or Feinstein's. Use your head, and see past the definitions game.

Did you know that in Feinstein's early "assault weapon" drafts, she had all "repeating arms" defined as "semi-automatic weapons"?

Do you see how the game is played?

First, you demonize a term -- and then, you apply it willy nilly, regardless of any rational application. If it applies legally, then it is moot whether or not the "legal definition" is absurd.

In case you're wondering what's the difference between "repeating arms" and "semi-automatic weapons", it's simple. If you're discussing anything other than a single-shot firearm, it's a "repeating arm".

The old single-action cowboy revolver? "Repeating arm."

Grampaw's old Winchester 30-30 lever-action? "Repeating arm."

That pump or bolt-action deer rifle? "Repeating arm."

I'll shut up now. Hopefully you've had an "ah-hah!" moment. Drop that Kahane tripe, don't try to sound cool using silly stuff, go to the range, meet some people who know what they're talking about, learn to shoot largebore handguns and centerfire rifles, and above all, don't get snowed by the antis with their ever-present word games. They'd redefine the ground out from under you if they ever figured out a way to pull it off.

[joesnuffy]

Rimfire ammo can penetrate kevlar vests....without ceramic plates

This is incremental gun grabbing....take your rights away one little piece at a time...often enough and you will have finally taken them all...

Which is the anti gun rights advocates stated goal...

[Don Joe]

This is a "magic bullet", although at a high price.

OK, I read the ad copy.

From what I read, it is a Sabbotted slug in a shotgun shell, which will send a relatively inaccurate (in rifle terms) bullet down a rifled shotgun barrel with sufficient force to penetrate a ballistic vest.

So explain to me again why this won't be banned along with centerfire rifle ammunition? For that matter, explain to me why they won't define a shotgun with a rifled barrel as "a rifle" if the fancy strikes them.

[backhoe]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1086488/posts
Smart Guns / Foolish Legislators--The Assault Weapons Ban May Be Bush's Undoing
various FR links | 02-17-04 | The Heavy Equipment Guy
--the fight to ensure the Clinton gun ban expires on time on September 13.

[Lion Den Dan]

Nobody needs armor piercing rounds for hunting.

It depends upon what you are hunting.

[TigersEye]

As to the ammendment, I'll wait and read it before freaking out. It there is any momentum to start banning center-fire jacketed ammunition of any type, we have crossed the Rubicon.

Let's understand something about the terms "AP" and "armor piercing" ammo. In the military lexicon I believe the term means specially hardened or explosive projectiles designed to pierce hardened armor found on tanks and the like. Am I wrong, Travis? You would know better than I.

When used by a politician or a media talking-head it is simply a weasel-word synonymous with "cop-killer bullet." That loosly means any projectile capable of piercing body-armor like a kevlar vest aka "soft-armor." Any high power rifle cartridge is capable of pushing its projectile, be it full-metal-jacket, soft-nose or hollow-point, through the toughest body-armor available with lethal power. That would include virtually every hunting round in existence. Don't get hung up on the word 'rifle' either; their are numerous pistols chambered in these cartridges as well.

The point being; any 'ammo' capable of efficiently killing any game animal bigger than a fallow deer is capable of piercing soft-armor.

I haven't read the article or fully read the thread but if the issue at hand comes down to only a study of AP ammo then one needs to ask themselves a couple of questions. Such as: "Who will actually conduct the study?" "What will be the guiding focus of the study?" "What will the gov. do with the results of the study?" Does anyone really think the Gov. is going to fund a study merely to find out the penetration power of various chamberings and bullet combinations? Gun writers, not to mention the firearms industry itself, have done the subject to death.

spodefly, if the intention of the study is to identify ammunition that can kill through body-armor then you can bet the farm the purpose of doing that is to lend credence to legislative efforts to restricting said ammunition. Once the study is done and the results have been handed to the media regarding "cop-killer" bullets the momentum will have already carried us across the Rubicon and the bridge will be ready to torch.

[TigersEye]

Nobody needs armor piercing rounds for hunting.

Please read my post #49.

[TERMINATTOR]

You got it, they'd like to ban all arms, and ammo too! Soon you'll have to choose...

1) Turn in your guns like a good sheeple (NRA==>> enforce existing gun "laws")
2) Keep em, hide em, and become a so called "outlaw" - go to the gulag if caught
3) Become an "outlaw" patriot and fight to keep em

Guess which one's legal?

[Don Joe]

Well, I'm too old, and in far too lousy health to fight. It's all I can do to make it from one day to the next. Can't work in the garden for more than a half hour or so without popping a nitro under my tongue as I lay on the dirt sucking air through my teeth wondering if this'll be the time I don't get up again. The rest of the time I "live" on several times more drugs than Limbaugh's getting 'oist for (all legal, all prescribed by one physician, who is not a "Doctor Feelgood" type, so I'm not worried about seeing my name in print). I put the word "live" in scarequotes because I hardly call this living. It's already too far off topic, so I'll simply say that constant serious pain sucks. It really, really sucks, in a way that cannot be described other than by experiencing it, and I certainly don't recommend that!

So, I guess I don't really fit into the picture you paint.

My observations are based on my knowledge of history, which I see playing itself out as it always does -- it's stuck in "repeat" mode. If you want to see the future, look at the past.

I worry about the next generation, and those that follow them. What can I do about it? Realistically, nothing, other than blab here, for all the good it does. Mainly gets it off my chest, I guess.

Well, it's late, I'm tired, and my pain meds are finally kicking in, so I guess I'll be off to sleep for a while. ("A while" generally means 3 to 4 hours, before they wear off, and then I get to mope around in a mixture of pain and exhaustion for another few hours, and repeat the process. Hey, I told you it sucks.)

[wysiwyg]

About the only thing you need armor piercing ammunition for is killing cops.

Not even close. Even the lowly .223 will defeat the body armor that police use. Most, if not all, hunting rifle ammunition will do the same. The .223 will even pierce 3/8" steel plate, so is that "armor-piercing" ammunition?

In any case, the definition is too easy for anti-gun judges and bureaucrats to interpret any way they want.

[wysiwyg]

If this article is correct, then why is Larry Craig an NRA director?

Because the NRA board elections are rigged to keep "moderates" on the board. I have yet to vote for him, but he keeps showing up.

[longtermmemmory]

iow they can't get the guns so they are getting the bullets? This reminds me of monahan's tax bullets to death.

[e_castillo]

Let's understand something about the terms "AP" and "armor piercing" ammo. In the military lexicon I believe the term means specially hardened or explosive projectiles designed to pierce hardened armor found on tanks and the like. Am I wrong, Travis? You would know better than I

Wouldn't the term be useless since the ATF will then determine what constitutes an AP projectile... Looks to me like they are trying to placate the Democrats into passing the Gun Manufacturer protection.

[ought-six]

The day of the SHTF appears to be rapidly approaching. I weep for my country, for it is being betrayed by its so-called leaders.

[Clean_Sweep]

Well what did you mean by this..."enhanced penalties for AP ammo possession"

How can they enhance the penalty without defining the ammo. What constitutes AP ammo now? What about real AP instead of the nonsensical Teflon handgun ammo?

[ought-six]

.30-30 Winchester cartridge? Hell, that's not much stronger than a .22 rimfire as far as penetration. Folks, we have to accept the fact that there is an all-out effort by the leftist elite to completely disarm the American people. They want us to be totally dependent on them for everything, even for our very lives. Well, I wasn't born a free man just to end up my life as a slave. I will "not go gently into that good night" when they come to enslave me. I will die a free man.

[BCR #226]

It just requires a study and the enhanced penalties for AP ammo possession or use in violent crime. It doesn't say anything about additional legislation after the study - just that there should be a study.

First of all, it is legal to possess AP ammo. It is illegal to purchase it or manufacture it. So, if what you say is true, then this amendment just outlawed the possession of AP ammo entirely?

I wish these legislators had a clue about the garbage they vote on. It should be a requirement that they must have at least some degree of education on the subject before being allowed to vote on it.

There doesn't need to be a study, save our tax money for better uses. There are experts on the subject of weapons and projectiles out there that have decades of study under their belts. Ask the questions to the real experts and get expert answers... stop asking the questions to the gun grabbers who have zero education on firearms.

The trick to putting down the gun grabbers is to ask them for the credentials that make them an expert on firearms. They don't have any and cannot give you any. I've slapped quite a few of them around with that and I have always given my credentials on the matter.

Mike