Too Many Medals? (Court-martial considered for 507th POWs?)

MSNBC ^ | 02-13-04 | Michael Moran

[jaykay]

Too Many Medals?
Michael Moran for MSNBC

For 1st Lt. John O. Merrill, the fateful moment came in the skies over Mayen, Germany in February 1945, when he continued to fly his burning, flak-riddled B-26 bomber until all of his crew could bail out.

Capt. Ernie Arzabal's setting was different -- Vietnam, 1970 -- but the story familiar. Flying a light observation helicopter, Arzabal repeatedly exposed himself to enemy fire in order to rescue wounded American troops.

These actions earned both men the Distinguished Flying Cross, a decoration given to a relative handful of soldiers since Charles Lindbergh won the first for his trans-Atlantic solo flight in 1927. Since then, through World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf and all the engagements in between, right through the Afghan campaign, only 3,300 DFCs were awarded, according to the Distinguished Flying Cross Society, an organization of DFC recipients.

Yet since March 2002, the Air Force has awarded 463 of these coveted decorations, angering some veterans and rekindling a debate over how and why these honors are bestowed.

'Medals inflation?'
More than 69,000 awards and other honors have been handed out by the Air Force for the Iraq war, according to Air Force Capt. Richard Johnson. The list also includes four Air Force Crosses, one step below the Medal of Honor, plus 21 Silver Stars and over 1,900 Bronze Stars.

The Army trails just behind with 40,000 medals issued and approved, including 111 Silver Stars and more than 13,000 Bronze Stars.

[jaykay]

Near the end of the article, it reads:

By far the most controversial case in the current war involves Army Private Jessica Lynch and her unit, which became lost in Iraq and later surrendered after a firefight in which 11 of her comrades died.

Col. Jack Jacobs, who received the nation's highest medal, the Medal of Honor, during his Vietnam years, now an MSNBC military analyst, says the idea of giving medals to units who get lost or wind up captured is a relatively new phenomenon.

"The guys flying the EP-3 over China got medals, and so did those soldiers who drove the wrong way and wound up captured by Serbians during the Kosovo war", he says.

"It's like Jessica Lynch, which is a perfect example of the political motive, of using war as a promotion medium. Sell the idea to the public that it's heroic, then you hand out some awards, and you cheapen them by doing that."

In fact, another officer close to the Lynch case says senior Army officers were split fairly evenly over the issue of whether some in her unit should have been disciplined or even court-martialed for their conduct in captivity

What is that about? What could the POWs have done in captivity that they should be disciplined for?

[#3Fan]

Before captivity maybe, but during captivity?! Is everyone losing their minds over this incident? I've never seen such jealousy and ignorance.

[jaykay]

"Another officer close to the case." No name given, so it's one of those "anonymous sources." Maybe the statement is bunk.

[Always Right]

Funny how one unnamed source is good enough for most stories. But when one named source who is the principle of the allegation against an affair with Kerry, that is not enough for a story....

[Prodigal Son]

What could the POWs have done in captivity that they should be disciplined for?

Well, you're only supposed to give your basic information- name rank serial number. Some of the POWs were saying other things. I don't hold it against them personally.

But if you will remember, there was one soldier who only gave the required information. I think his name was Hudson if I am not mistaken. "Specialist James Hudson, US Army, (Social Security number)".

Technically, that's the way it should be done.

[Prodigal Son]

Correction: Joseph Hudson.

[jaykay]

That's right, I recall some said that they were from Texas and one, Pfc Miller said he was just there to "fix broke stuff" not to kill people. No doubt they had guns as well as cameras pointed at them.

Didn't some of the Desert Storm POWs actually denouce the U.S.A. on camera, obviously under duress, their faces cut and bruised?

What are the military's rules? Don't say anything except name, rank and serial number, even if it means getting shot?

[visualops]

Social Security number? Surely the "serial number" isn't one's Social Security number?
On another note, if medals are for various forms of exceptional valor, sacrifice etc, given for actions on the battlefield, then perhaps they should create a seperate medal for being a POW. Then, if someone's behavior in captivity was questionable, then they could just withhold the medal. I can't see disciplining or court-martial for cracking under the duress of threats or torture in a POW situation. Now, if one started giving away the farm or collaborating that'd be a different story.

[jaykay]

There is a "POW Medal" already isn't there?

[wgeorge2001]

Who would want to give medals out for getting lost or not risking your life above and beyond the call of duty?
Who believes that everyone is and should be the same and by government intervention, excepting their elitist selfish selves, and has consistently lowered standards of excellence and whose agenda is pie in the sky non excellence, lest some one be offended.
Who has ruined the public school systems by lowering standards for all children and keeping those who excel back from excelling.
Who else but the new age liars and revisionist history propagandists of America; the communist liberals who vote democrat,greenie,independent and rino while the conservatives stand back and let them.
Creeping liberalism is much like creeping cancer that destroys the body and the minds of America.

[archy]

Social Security number? Surely the "serial number" isn't one's Social Security number?

It sure is, usually abbreviated *SSAN*. Since around 1970.

[visualops]

Wow I had no idea.

[visualops]

Bump

[visualops]

You are right.

Prisoner of War Medal
Instituted: 1985
Dates: All
Devices: (Silver Star, Bronze Star)
Notes: Gold and Silver Star attachments apply only to USN, USMC and USCG. Bronze and Silver Oak Leaf attachments apply only to Army and USAF.
Eligibility: The POW Medal is authorized by Public Law 99-145, section 1128, title 10, United States Code (10 USC 1128), 8 November 1985, and is authorized for any person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Armed Forces, was taken prisoner and held captive after 5 April 1917. The POW Medal is to be issued only to those U.S. military personnel and other personnel granted credible U.S. military service who were taken prisoner and held captive:

(1) While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States.
(2) While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force.
(3) While serving with friendly forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

---

The following text is from the original army directive. Please verify current edition with your respective military service: [Paragraph 2-9, Army Regulation 600-8-22 (Military Awards) 25 February 1995]

a. The POW Medal is authorized by Public Law 99-145, section 1128, title 10, United States Code (10 USC 1128), 8 November 1985, and is authorized for any person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Armed Forces, was taken prisoner and held captive after 5 April 1917.

b. The POW Medal is to be issued only to those U.S. military personnel and other personnel granted creditable U.S. military service who were taken prisoner and held captive.

(1) While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States.

(2) While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force.

(3) While serving with friendly forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

c. U.S. and foreign civilians who have been credited with U.S. military service which encompasses the period of captivity are also eligible for the medal. The Secretary of Defense authorized on January 27, 1990, the POW Medal for the Philippine Commonwealth Army and Recognized Guerrilla Unit Veterans who were held captive between December 7, 1941, and September 26, 1945. DD Form 2510-1 (Prisoner of War Medal Application/Information-Philippine commonwealth Army and Recognized Guerrilla Veterans) was developed as the application for Filipino Veterans who fit this category.

d. For purposes of this medal, past armed conflicts are defined as World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam Conflict, and Persian Gulf War. Hostages of terrorists and persons detained by governments with which the United States is not engaged actively in armed conflict are not eligible for the medal.

e. Any person convicted of misconduct or a criminal charge by a U.S. military tribunal, or who receives a less than honorable discharge based upon actions while a prisoner of war, or whose conduct was not in accord with the Code of Conduct, and whose actions are documented by U.S. military records is ineligible for the medal. The Secretary of the Army is the authority for deciding eligibility in such cases.

f. No more than one POW Medal will be awarded. For subsequent award of the medal, service stars will be awarded and worn on the suspension and service ribbon of the medal. A period of captivity terminates on return to U.S. military control. Escapees who do not return to U.S. military control and are recaptured by an enemy do not begin a new period of captivity for subsequent award of the POW Medal. (Service stars are described in chap 6.)

g. The POW Medal may be awarded posthumously.

h. The primary next of kin of eligible prisoners of war who die in captivity may be issued the POW Medal regardless of the length of stay in captivity.

i. Personnel officially classified as MIA are not eligible for award of the POW Medal. The POW Medal will only be awarded when the individuals prisoner of war status has been officially confirmed and recognized as such by the Department of the Army. Likewise, the return of remains, in and of itself, does not constitute evidence of confirmed prisoner of war status.

j. All requests for the POW Medal will be initiated by eligible former POWs, or their next of kin, using a personal letter or DD form 2510 (prisoner of War Medal Application/Information). Applications should be forwarded to the Commander, ARPERCEN, ATTN: DARP-VSE-A, 9700 Page Boulevard, St. Louis, M0 63132-5200.

[Prodigal Son]

Surely the "serial number" isn't one's Social Security number?

Yep, it sure is. The Army did away with the service number a while back. They realized that everyone had a SSN anyway that was unique so it made just as much sense to use that.

[Prodigal Son]

Whoops, I see archy has already answered that one.

Another interesting note, even the color of your medical records jacket is based upon your SSN. You commonly use the last four digits of the number for just about everything in the Army, but the medical records take it a step further. They use the next to the last digit of your SSN to asign you a specific color of folder.

My next to the last number was/is 7, so I always had a brown folder. The folders come as blanks with the 7 already filled in and the other three numbers blank (7 or whatever your next to last digit is)

When you go to the clinic, they ask you your last four and you would spout off '_ _ 7 _' and they'd know just what color folder to go looking for.

Sounds wild but it works very efficiently. Don't ask me what the reasoning is behind that one.

[Prodigal Son]

"What are the military's rules? "

It's got to do with the Military Code of Conduct (AR 350-30).

I post it here below- the pertinent part is the next to last paragraph:


I am an American fighting in the forces that guard my country and our way of life, I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies.

I will never forget that I am an American fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

---

To the utmost of my ability... That's what the military expects.

It's like I said, I don't hold anything against these guys.

They were a bunch of mechanics and clerks. Some of their comrades were reported to have been killed execution style. They'd just ran into a world of sh!t and see their friends die. They're hurt, tired, scared. Probably thinking they're going to die soon.

They've got all these people babbling in a language they don't understand, pointing guns at 'em. Suddenly there's a camera in their faces and somebody asking questions in English. The one that did the most talking was an NCO. Maybe he felt it was his job to deflect the interrogation away from his juniors and to try to ensure their survival at the same time by giving the answers he did.

In my view, he didn't disgrace his country and he took care of his soldiers.

But, I do remember noting at the time it happened that the SPC Hudson was the only one to do it the right way and you could tell by looking in his eyes that he felt that to say more would be wrong.

Maybe some vets take issue with the SGT talking. Who knows?

[Prodigal Son]

Actually, I think I have that wrong, now that I read the thread. The one who talked the most was in fact a PFC. Hmmm. Throws a bit of a different light on it. Perhaps Hudson was the one trying to set the example? I'm sure he was.

[muawiyah]

There's always been an officer around to recommend punishing the enlisted personnel for being in the military.

Take this guy out and send him packing in the Canadian Arctic for a few months.

[eastforker]

For those of us that saw the video of the POW's killed on Al-Jazzera, the video's that showed them shot in the head, their pants pulled down, the soldier hanging out of the Humvee,dead, The survivors went through hell, these soldiers deserve any medals they got.