America's Prison Habit

Washington Post ^ | 24 January 2004 | By Alan Elsner

[George W. Bush]

He wanted to see what it FELT LIKE TO KILL. He choose a 16 year old with the physical and emotional make-up of a 13 year old for his victim. Beat my Jeremy to death with a 4 x 4 fence post. More than a dozen blows ALL FROM BEHIND.

This is why I advocate captial punishment but reject any argument that it deters murder.

The blood of the innocent demands justice. These people need to be killed, to taste the same death they willfully gave a harmless person.

And if we allow some animal to brutally destroy innocent lives and escape execution, we are morally corrupted. There is, in a case like this, almost a mathmatical inevitability to it.

Some crimes demand execution, without fail, without delay.

I can only sympathize at how the state continued to victimize your family and many others by failing their responsibility to do justice.

[Cubs Fan]

---While three strikes and out seems to be quite popular, I would suggest you speak to a judge. Not rarely, there are gross injustices and excessive sentences by this "one-size-fits all" policy. After all, what are judges for?---

I'd rather have two strikes and your out for violent felons. People who murder premiditatedly should be jailed permanantly or put to death. People who do things such as kidnapping and raping, or shooting someone in the commission of a robbery should be incarcerated for their entire lives even if it is their first offense.

I agree that drug users and low level drug dealers should have a chance ot get back into society on their first offense. But when violence enters the picture it becomes the duty of the government to protect its law abiding citizens against such people, and they should in many cases be permanently removed from our society.

As far as judges, there's a very good reason three strikes and mandatory sentences came about. Because there are also liberal judges out there who think that "compassion" is letting evil out again and aagain to destroy innocent lives.

[FITZ]

Among the defects in the prison system is the lack of Christian forgiveness.

There was this guy who was 29 and he murdered a 14 year old girl who was doing nothing but riding her bike. He not only murdered her but viciously mutilated her --- hopefully after she was killed but no one knows. Why on earth should he be forgiven? Not if being forgiven means we think he can be rehabilitated.

[PattonReincarnated]

It seems that no matter what we try as a society we have repeat offenders. The one thing that we have not tried in a long, long time is real punishment. Answer one question after then end of this description of my jail: Would you do everything possible not to return to this jail?

1.) The jail consists of cells - 8 feet by 6 feet by 10 feet. There are four concrete bunks per cell. There are no windows. This is based on economics. Windows cost money. I see no problem with warehousing prisoners on top of each other – they owe society, not the other way around – as little amount of money should be spent on housing prisoners as possible.

2.) Prisoners, once placed in the cell, remain in the cell. There is no networking; meeting other prisoners, other than the ones placed in your cell. There is no Muslim conversion, gangs, or other illegal activities.

3.) One meal is served a day, which is the same, every day - a vitamin fortified gruel. When we have people that go hungry in our country, why should prisoners eat three meals. Three meals are expensive. Actually, many everyday people, like myself do not eat three meals a day. This is again a matter of economics. The food serves a basic need – nutrition. Nutrition doesn’t have to be pleasant.

4.) There is no working out. There is no entertainment. More economics, plus why should thugs become bigger thugs in prison.

5.) There is no smoking. There are no pillows, sheets, blankets, or clothes. These things catch fire, cause riots, and get stuck in toilets. These problems do not exist in this prison, because problems are anticipated, and we want to limit problems so we can limit the size of prison staffs.

6.) The temperature is kept at a constant level with adequate ventilation to ensure good health. Prisoners are deloused daily from a shower head fixed in the ceiling. Prisoners are warm and clean. In the summer, they will be hot and clean. Too many people in America still do not have air-conditioning, why should prisoners.

7.) Daily lectures are given over loud speakers on the behavior of good people and how they handle themselves in society. These are taped once, used in all prisons, and are used over and over again. Again, economics.

8.) One strike and you are out: If a prisoner physically attacks one of his cell mates, he is then put into solitary confinement the rest of his term. Every thing would be identical in solitary, except the cell is smaller.

This is a humane place, where a prisoner eats, sleeps, and thinks about what one has done wrong and what he will do right when he gets out.

I think it would cost about $1,200 per year per prisoner in this jail. And they would not want to come back.

[Melas]

Restitution is a pie in the sky concept. Unfortunately its way to easy to commit crimes against property which the monetary value is so high you could never hope to make restitution to the victim.

[Cubs Fan]

Among the defects in the prison system is the lack of Christian forgiveness.

I'm glad that there is a God who can look into people's hearts and see if they are truly repentent.

But I, like most others, don't have this power. I, like most others, can only predict the future behavior of other people based on their past behavior.

That is why forgiveness is best left to God, not to man's prison system.

[mass55th]

"Have you lost your mind?? "

Apparently he or she has lost their mind or is speaking out of sheer ignorance. Anybody with half a brain will realize that since the '80's, treatment of the convicted felon has changed drastically in favor of the convict. In the 80's, the courts became involved in the running of prisons. That was the beginning of the end. Prisoners' rights groups and bleeding-hearted liberals changed the way convicts do their time. I believe the burgeoning prison population of the 80's can directly be related to the fact that there is no such thing as "hard time" anymore. Prison should be a place so terrible that no one would ever want to go there, and those that do end up there should never want to go back. Instead, it has become nothing more than another form of welfare, where criminals hang out with their home-boys, are given shelter, three square meals, an education, healthcare, etc. for free. Many prisons are like college campuses. They have access to general libraries and law libraries, gyms and weightlifting equipment, can buy non-taxable items at the commissary, can place catalog orders for approved items, can belong to and attend services and events for the religious group of their choice, can have special diets pertaining to religious beliefs, can belong to a variety of ethic groups and attend special events pertaining to these groups, can be married, can have conjugal visits, have unlimited access to telephones, television, cooking privileges.

I could go on and on, but why bother. I spent over 23 years working in the New York State prison system. I started in '80 and retired just this past December. During that time I worked in maximum and medium security prisons. The medium security prisons I worked in were nothing more than maximum prisons with fences. In the early 80's, the state more than doubled the number of medium prisons they had. They primarily built medium facilities because the cost of steel was too high to build the maximum style. When we first opened the medium facility I was at in '83, an inmate had to be within three years of his first parole board. By the time I left there 20 years later, the average inmate sent there was within 10-12 years of his first board.

During those 23 years, I saw a big change in the disciplining of the inmates. Drug testing was reduced to practically nothing, and punishment for misbehavior got to be slim to none. Lack of keeplock units created a revolving door system that saw inmates locked up for serious offenses, kicked out after a week or less to make room for the next round of troublemakers. It went on that way until the department forced their administrators to refine their discipline guidelines. It got so bad that the officers didn't bother to write the inmates up when they committed a rule violation because the tickets were either thrown out, or the inmate was given a suspended sentence or a minimal disposition. Why bother trying to enforce the rules when the inmates were getting only slaps on the wrist and were lauging at the officers' lack of authority. The department became more interested in wax buildup and counting soapballs than they were about the inmates doing drugs or carrying weapons.

I'm glad I'm out of it all, but I do feel sorry for the men and women who are just coming into the department. Maybe they're lucky though. They don't have anything to compare the present system to. I remember how it used to be and seeing how it has all turned out is upsetting to say the least.

"The only thing that keeps ex-cons from making a go of it is attitude. Period!"

I agree with you totally here as well. I've always told the inmates that getting out of prison was the easy part; staying out was the hard part. An individual has to want to change, and that change has to come from within.

[shrinkermd]

"That is why forgiveness is best left to God, not to man's prison system.

The charge laid upon us is hard, but the message is clear. See Below:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.(Matthew 6:14-15)

[Monty22]

Yeah, but you can't get Tivo in prison..

To me that's cruel and unusual!!

[RunningJoke]

"Quite a bit of people out there believe in priori logic. Examples of priori logic: A priori logic assumes that poverty breeds crime, that necessity is the mother of invention, that a permissive upbringing will produce self-reliant adults, that authority hampers change."

"The logic of events shows the opposite to be true. Rich countries have a higher crime rate than poor countries, invention is least where the pressure of necessity is greatest, permissive upbringing produces conformist adults lacking confidence, authority is crucial for the realization of drastic change."

[shrinkermd]

I am not sure respecting your reasoning. NO one has discussed changes in child rearing as a cause of homicides. The statistics below suggests this either a stationery variable or not significant in respect to the homicide rate.

In respect to homicide per 100,000: 50.14 South Africa 21.40 Russia (1999,10.00 Lithuania,_9.94 Estonia,_6.22 Latvia,5.64 U.S.A.,2.94 Spain;_2.86 Finland;_2.84 Northern Ireland,2.72 Czech Republic,2.65 Slovakia,2.58 New Zealand,2.50 Romania,_2.31 Turkey (1999).

USA homicide rate in 1950 was 4.6/100,000 and 5.6 in 2001. During this time there was a relative increase of minorities and the drug plague. Presently, according to the Men's Issues Page and the BLS the lifetime chance for being murdered is 1 in 30 for black males, 1 in 179 for white males, 1 in 132 for black females, and 1 in 495 for white females.

I do believe in most crime statistics (at least for perpetrators) Hispanics are included with whites. IMHO the homicide rate is not really different over a period of 53 years for European whites. The problems seems to be in those countries and racial sub-populations where alcohol and drug use is rampant.

I don't have the source readily at hand but my best recollection suggests that when a perpetrator is known there is a 40% chance he is African-American in spite of AA being only 13% of the population. This even worse than it sounds since almost all AA homicides are done by males between 15 and 35 years of age. The basic problem seems to be drug wars and crimes committed while intoxicated from alcohol or influenced by drugs. In addition, this perpetrator population is characterized by broken homes, poverty and illiteracy.

What the author of the editorial seems to want is another approach. The one we have now is not working. I realize that "lock him up..punish him..throw the key away.. is popular; however, the President and the author of this editorial are both looking for a way to do things better.

Thanks for thinking about this. The problem will not go away.

[Jim Noble]

Prison in its current form does more harm than good to society, and should be abolished.

[Jim Noble]

We don't punish criminals enough in this country. Examples-- Dru Sjodin's murderer had two prior violent rapes, one involved kidnapping at knife point, why is he out? So he could kill his next rape victim? A guy in Wilmette Illinois recently shot an intruder (and was charged for it, because "guns are bad, ummkay") The intruder had over 30 arrests in his lifetime. Why is he out? A guy in Hammond, David Maust, was found with three dead juveniles in his basement. He had killed two juveniles and stabbed another prior to that. Why was he out?

The proper question is not, "Why were (they) out?"

The right question is, "Why were they alive?"

[freekitty]

I agree with you, toomuchcoffee.

[RunningJoke]

You are looking only at homicides for the overall crime rate. I would think most crimes do not involve murder. Of course if that is the only thing you consider a crime than I cannot argue with that. Most of the top homicide countries you posted are countries that are throwing off the shackles of totalitarianism. The rule of law will take at least a generation to get hold if it can.

[Jim Noble]

These people need to be killed, to taste the same death they willfully gave a harmless person.

It isn't so they can taste death-it's just the most practical solution.

Look, imagine that you, your daughter, and the sociopath who killed that girl in SD lived together in a village of three.

Once you know that his reptile brain was vibrating 24/7 with thoughts of what he would do to your daughter (already established in this case by his previous crimes), you would kill him immediately, right?

No question.

So why does living in society require that he NOT be killed?

It is not as if he is innocent-his prior guilt is established, the case for his demise bolstered by psych reports that document what he will do when he gets the chance.

Not killing these sociopaths presents needless expense and needless risk.

I myself am very attracted to the justice argument, but I recognize that we have Democrats in this country who don't care about justice.

So, I think the purely utilitarian argument works best.

[George W. Bush]

So, I think the purely utilitarian argument works best.

We'll have to disagree. If your position were to dominate the issue on the pro-death penalty side (as it too often does IMO), then it comes down to only money and the libs can continue to stall with arguments about how it's cheaper to confine them for life (which never means life to them). Or that a person's life should not be terminated as a cost-savings measure.

My line of argument doesn't leave those holes open for them. And I believe that the public will support it. And it upholds a sense of justice, an eye for an eye, that is consistent with our tradition and ideas of justice.

You say kill 'em, it's cheaper.

I say, kill 'em, I demand the innocent be revenged and a brutal animal put to death.

I think it's a moral question and addresses the entire idea of innocent life vs. brutal murderers. And it ties into our pro-life arguments on abortion as well.

[Jim Noble]

You say kill 'em, it's cheaper.

No, I say, kill'em, it's safer.

I don't really care about the money.

However, once prison is abolished as I desire, it WILL be a lot cheaper to kill 'em.

Works either way.

[DustyMoment]

I don't doubt it; and that's a fundamental part of what is wrong with our current prison system. For prison to be prison, they need to get rid of:

1) Cable TV
2) Prison law library
3) Gym
4) Access to the courts for frivolous lawsuits; if they want to file a suit while in prison, they have to pay all costs up front
5) Computer-related jobs that give them access to people's personal information and/or the Internet
6) Medical care that exceeds basic necessities. Transplants, cosmetic surgery, cancer treatment, joint replacement and the like should not be included. Basic medical care is just what it sounds like.

When prison is prison again, they might not be so anxious to go there . . . or to return.