After Bush speech, Russia mulls missions to Moon and Mars (...yeah right)

AFP ^ | Thu, Jan 15, 2004

[presidio9]

In an echo of the Cold War space race, Russia said that it had the know-how to relaunch its space exploration programs, a day after Washington laid out ambitious plans to return to the Moon and press on to Mars.

"We have many initiatives from researchers on organizing expeditions to the Moon and Mars," said Nikolai Moiseyev, a deputy director of the Russian Rosaviakosmos space agency.

"Before the end of the year, we intend to develop a federal space program until 2015 and it is possible that such projects would be included," the ITAR-TASS news agency quoted him as saying Thursday.

On Wednesday, US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) unveiled ambitious plans for the United States to return to the Moon as early as 2015, saying a lunar base would serve as a jumping-off point for manned missions to Mars and "across our solar system."

During the Cold War, Washington and Moscow competed fiercely in space exploration, and many Russians are still intensely proud of Soviet achievements in that field.

The Soviet Union scored a major victory on April 12, 1961, when Yury Gagarin became the first man in space. The Americans struck back eight years later, when Neil Armstrong became the first man to step on the Moon on July 20, 1969.

Moscow's space programs had to be considerably scaled back in 1991, when the Soviet Union fell apart and state financing dried up.

But as Washington outlined its plans this week, officials here emphasized that though Russia may be short of financial resources for ambitious space programs, it could hold its own in the field of technology and skills.

An official with the institute that developed the Soviet "Lunokhod" (Moonwalker) robot said that scientists have maintained their research and development efforts and could quickly resume construction.

"If Russia decides to revive its lunar program, we would need a year to create a prototype of a new Lunokhod and two to three years to construct the apparatus," Roald Kremnyev, deputy director of the Lavochkin institute, told ITAR-TASS.

"Russia can overtake USA," an anchorwoman on state television said Thursday, echoing comments the previous day by a top Russian space official who said that Moscow is capable of placing a man on Mars within 10 years at one tenth of the cost of reported US plans.

"Technically, the first flight to Mars could be made in 2014. It would cost around 15 billion dollars (11.7 billion euros) to do it, compared with the American estimate for their project of 150 billion dollars," said Leonid Gorshkov, chief designer with Energia, the Russian space constructor.

And an unnamed official at Energia on Thursday suggested that the United States and Russia should join forces in Mars exploration.

"It would be much more profitable to pool efforts in a manned flight to Mars and the planetary development instead of holding the project independently," the Interfax news agency quoted him as saying.

Russia and the United States have been cooperating in work aboard the International Space Station (news - web sites) since it was launched in 1998.

After the US grounded its shuttle program following the 2003 Columbia disaster Russian rockets were left as the only way to ferry people and supplies to and from the ISS.

Following Bush's speech, NASA (news - web sites) chief Sean O'Keefe spoke by phone with his counterpart at Rosaviakosmos to assure him that the Americans had no intention of withdrawing from the ISS.

"O'Keefe said that there was no talk of NASA withdrawing from the ICC," the Russian agency's spokesman told RIA Novosti.

[ambrose]

Pretty damn cool that they were able to get photos of an 800 degree planet back in the 1970s... It is amazing what the Soviets pulled off with their crude technology.

[presidio9]

Pretty damn cool that they were able to get photos of an 800 degree planet back in the 1970s... It is amazing what the Soviets pulled off with their crude technology.

Well, the photo is enhanced, but it is still an impressive feat. To combat the crushing pressure of Venus's atmosphere (90 times that of Earth!) the cameras looked out through windows made of quartz that was 1cm thick! There is a BBC article about it here

[ambrose]

Thanks for the link - very interesting article. I don't think we'll be colonizing Venus any time soon.

What's even more amazing than the Soviet ship surviving the 800 degree temperatures or the 90x Earth atmospheric pressure is that they were able to return images of any kind to Earth... Venus is completely covered with thick layers of clouds.

One can only wonder where we might be today if the Soviets and Americans had "stayed the course" and continued space exploration with new accomplishments at the rate that were being made in the 60s and 70s. New innovations pretty much died out from the 80s onwards.

[presidio9]

I didn't mention it because it wasn't in space.

By that logic, the US Space Program has never had a casualty. All our deaths happened on the launch pad or en route to or from space. Russia still has dead cosmonauts floating around up there.

[boris]

"Buran has few predessesors. Like Bor vehicle and Spiral. I think that russian designers used some information from Shuttle project if as you say there was blueprints available. But to copy Shuttle onbase of it is impossible. If you are engineer then you agree. Can you copy RD -180 engine if you eevn have it in your warehouse? Not talking about blueprints of that engine."

In the 1980s the Foreign Technology department at Wright-Patterson AFB paid me to analyze and 'reverse engineer' Russian engines. So yes, we could copy the RD-180.

"BTW in what year those blueprints was gone into Soviet Embassy?"

It is my understanding that a flood of FOIA requests originating in Russia's Washington embassy began in the late 1970s and continued to about the mid-1980s.

--Boris

[muleskinner]

Hmmmm....the Russian one is bigger and has a reservoir tip.

[RusIvan]

So yes, we could copy the RD-180.===

I doubt it. Of cause it is possible to make metal model of it. But there have to be some small details which very difficult to know so to copy. You have to repass all the way of R&D to know it. Otherwise you ignite your copy and it just explodes:)).
If it would be easy to copy then the manufacturer won't sell them.

[untenured]

Bush says this is what we're going to do.

I'll go on record as saying that the U.S. government won't establish a permanent presence on the moon or go to Mars, because the welfare state already claims too much of our national income and emotional attention. And this problem will only get worse as the baby boomers age.

I have no idea what Russia or China's fiscal constraints are like, but ours will be fatal.

Unless some clever engineer comes up with a stroke of cost-saving genius, it won't IMHO happen.

[RightWhale]

Say what you want. You are anonymous, or as someone mentioned earlier, pseudonymous on FR. During the 5-year lifetime of this plan there will be an increase in human/robotic design, but otherwise there will be little difference that can be seen from outside. Real changes wouldn't kick in until sometime in the White House admin cycle beginning 2009.

[RusIvan]

By that logic, the US Space Program has never had a casualty. All our deaths happened on the launch pad or en route to or from space. Russia still has dead cosmonauts floating around up there.==

What dead cosmanaut floating?:)) What the crap?

Boris mentioned one incendent when rocket WITHOUT cosmanauts exploded on starting table and killed many people from service and preparing.
Those people wasn't on capsule even on rocket just incindent happened during preparation of test firing.
So it wasn't cosmanaut deaths. Concerning space flights USSR has 5. Russia has 0 casualties.

[untenured]

You are anonymous, or as someone mentioned earlier, pseudonymous on FR.

Hey, I plan to be Freepin' in 2030, so ping me. :)

I don't know the first thing about space technology, so if this turns out to be cheaper than the papers think it will be I will be happy to be publicly chastised. But if not, Americans are going to want Granny's medicine a lot more than they are going to want to watch someone land on Mars. And there are going to be a lot more Grannies then than there are now.

[RightWhale]

Someone posted a NASA budget plan chart for the near future, a possible cross section of all possible budgets. A small kick now and then just inflationary growth for the next 15 years. But in 17 years the ISS and the Space Shuttle are zero and manned exploration is tripled. Nearly the same money plus inflation, but a completely re-oriented set of goals. Hard to imagine anybody jacking the budget much higher unless they spot that incoming killer asteroid.

[untenured]

Nearly the same money plus inflation, but a completely re-oriented set of goals.

Can they get to Mars on that?

More to the point, can they get to Mars on half that?

[RightWhale]

I don't believe they intend to go to Mars with intent to land any time in the next 20 years. They will probably make a 2-year long excursion to include a fly-by of Mars, one of a series of long-duration deep flights. Deep by today's standards.

[boris]

"I doubt it. Of cause it is possible to make metal model of it. But there have to be some small details which very difficult to know so to copy. You have to repass all the way of R&D to know it. Otherwise you ignite your copy and it just explodes:)).
If it would be easy to copy then the manufacturer won't sell them."

You (fortunately) have no idea of the resources and competency of the people I work with.

--Boris

[Neophyte]

I didn't mention it because it wasn't in space.

Those three cosmonauts found dead in their landing capsule haven't died in space, too.

However, it's a Jesuit argument.

By the way, are you able to at least estimate how many Soviet disasters were kept secret, and still are?

[RusIvan]

Those three cosmonauts found dead in their landing capsule haven't died in space, too.==

Of cause they are included in soviet 5 dead cosmonauts. Soviet account is 5. Russian is 0. American is 17.

Boris started this argument by saying that Soviet/Russian space program is not safe. I told him you check out numbers first.

[Neophyte]

I told him you check out numbers first.

By your own - Jesuit - logic you shouldn't include those three cosmonauts since they didn't die in space. But you did include them 'cause you feel yourself the absurdity of not doing so. And to separate Russian space programme from Soviet, or to exclude hundreds who died on the launch pad from the list of casualties (because "it didn't happen in space") is utterly absurd...

As a matter of fact, no one here denies Russians (or Soviets, same sh*t) their real - huge! - achievements in the space exploration. So stop revealing your inferiority complex, Vania, and cut the Agitprop crap.

[RusIvan]

By your own - Jesuit - logic you shouldn't include those three cosmonauts since they didn't die in space. ===

They died of depressurazation of capsule during landing. So they rightfully included in to space casualties.