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Grand Canyon Made By Noah's Flood, Book Says (Geologists Skewer Park For Selling Creationism)
San Francisco Chronicle ^ | January 8, 2004 | Julie Cart, Los Angeles Times

Posted on 01/08/2004 7:21:37 AM PST by Scenic Sounds

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:45:24 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

How old is the Grand Canyon? Most scientists agree with the version that rangers at Grand Canyon National Park tell visitors: that the 217-mile-long chasm in northern Arizona was carved by the Colorado River 5 million to 6 million years ago.


(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bible; creationism; flood; grandcanyon; greatflood; noah; noahsflood
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To: lugsoul
I regret that our discourse degraded into namecalling and insults. It's too bad it came to what it did. I am sorry for my part in it. I should not have reacted the way I did. I think both our guards were up from the very first post.

I gotta go. I wish you well.

381 posted on 01/09/2004 3:40:56 PM PST by exmarine ( sic semper tyrannis)
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To: exmarine
I don't consider the semantic part of the argument irrelevant, because the word Lord has a very specific legal and political meaning that is not present in any of its antecedents in the original languages. Obviously you do consider it irrelevant, because your sole point seems to be that God is God.

"God cares about people and all activities that people participate in. If you are doing an activity that does not glorify God or is in contravention of His moral laws, then that is Sin. He has laid down certain moral laws and requires obedience."

Here is where we part ways. No, I don't think he really cares about cribbage, xbox, file sharing, or driving over the speed limit. Nor do I agree that any activity that does not glorify God is equal to Sin. It seems obvious, even from the Bible, that some of man's activities neither glorify God nor sin against Him. And no, I don't see any textual basis for the claim that he has the guiding hand of predetermination on each and every human activity.

What brand, again?

382 posted on 01/09/2004 3:43:17 PM PST by lugsoul (And I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin on the mountainside.)
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To: RadioAstronomer; Dataman; bondserv; Dr. Eckleburg
LOL. Granted you're an expert on radioastronomy. Now just how does that make you an expert on all other Wisdom?
383 posted on 01/09/2004 3:44:18 PM PST by Markofhumanfeet
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To: lugsoul
Your lying about your identity doesn't help yours.

Can you not read my name "Andrewc" at the top of the profile page? Did you not get there by either clicking on "Andrewc" in a post or by entering it into the search box? I put those names of banned posters as a reminder and homage. You are very "liberal" with your name-calling and groundless accusations but short on evidence.

Frankly, you are making a laughingstock out of yourself when you challenge evidence with nothing but your own words. I have given you links to the Blue-letter Bible and you give nothing but your lousy thoughts. Now here is another Hebrew Bible with the same words. The first is the tetragrammaton and the second is adon.

Finally, you are pretty arrogant to place yourself above about 400 years of scholarship that use "lord" as a translation of adon. What are we to expect, a lugsoul version of the Bible?

384 posted on 01/09/2004 3:58:35 PM PST by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic.)
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To: exmarine
same to you..
385 posted on 01/09/2004 4:01:45 PM PST by lugsoul (And I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin on the mountainside.)
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To: AndrewC
Wow. You really need some help in comprehension. Perhaps if you were a bit slower to try to fight you wouldn't spend half your time fighting with positions you've made up in your mind.

First, you are linking me to an online bible. Which, by its very nature, cannot be used in making any point on this issue. Second, while adon may well be used in some today, the prevalent use in and shortly after Biblical times was adonai. Third, while adon is translated as "lord," that doesn't mean it means "lord", any more than de nada means "you are welcome." And the meaning of 'lord' that was prevalent at the time that word was adopted in the KJV did not even exist in the Levant in Biblical times, and the legal and political connontations of that word were alien to the culture to which you ascribe that word. Get a grip.

386 posted on 01/09/2004 4:07:53 PM PST by lugsoul (And I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin on the mountainside.)
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To: lugsoul; AndrewC; Dataman; Dr. Eckleburg
An indepth study of the whole bible, both Hebrew and New Testament, will teach the discerning student much about how The Lord God has revealed Himself through His divine names. There is a steady progression through the text and in each new name another aspect of the Lord is revealed. In fact one of the names, the tetragrammaton, does mean "The Lord God". Elohim, Adonai, and all of the other 72 names in the OT, as well as Immanuel, Jesus Christ, The Redeemer, etc. in the NT, reveals even more of Him to us, and revelation is the essential purpose of the names.

The Hebrews did not "name" God. He reveals His name to them

387 posted on 01/09/2004 4:12:20 PM PST by Markofhumanfeet
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To: lugsoul
Wow. You really need some help in comprehension.

You have displayed a truly amazing repertoire of galling ignorance. Not one substantiation for your arguments. You are certainly a maroon deserving of complete avoidance. I suppose you gave Clinton advice on the word "is".

388 posted on 01/09/2004 4:17:17 PM PST by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic.)
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To: All
This thread is starting to look like all those pulled threads during the nightmare months of mid-2003, when deranged terrorist trolls destroyed many of our threads. And a few of the same disruptors are back -- some with new names, some (who never got banned) are here with their originals. The abuse button is being furiously mashed. The mods are on full alert. And no information of any value is being exchanged.

So I herewith announce my intention to Abandon Thread!

389 posted on 01/09/2004 4:21:17 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: Markofhumanfeet
You are wasting your time. Anybody that makes a statement which asserts that you cannot use the Bible to argue about the Bible is, well, an idiot. "First, you are linking me to an online bible. Which, by its very nature, cannot be used in making any point on this issue. "
390 posted on 01/09/2004 4:22:23 PM PST by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic.)
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To: AndrewC
Just the mention of the Lord's names have caused some of them to jump overboard, so, mission complete
391 posted on 01/09/2004 4:24:28 PM PST by Markofhumanfeet
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To: Markofhumanfeet
Hey, what do you expect? I make two relevant posts, one showing that Bertrand Russell was most likely an atheist, because his definition of agnostic would make me an agnostic and the other showing that the Bible does contain the word translated as "lord" (by certainly hundreds of millions of people) then I am obliquely referred to as a disruptor. No challenge or debate is sought by those who expressed their departure.
392 posted on 01/09/2004 4:31:43 PM PST by AndrewC (I am a Bertrand Russell agnostic.)
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To: lugsoul
Again, you are simply repeating the words someone chose to substitute. Find an original Hebrew text and search for Adon or Adonai.

Genesis 15:2. First used by Abraham, who had a whole new understanding revealed to him by the Lord

393 posted on 01/09/2004 4:43:03 PM PST by Markofhumanfeet
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To: AndrewC
Bertrand Russell used to thank God that he was an atheist, or at the least, not a Christian, so I think he was as confused as the followers here of Madalyn Murphy O'Hare
394 posted on 01/09/2004 4:45:30 PM PST by Markofhumanfeet
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To: Markofhumanfeet
Murray
395 posted on 01/09/2004 4:51:43 PM PST by Markofhumanfeet
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To: GluteusMax
No, I wasn't trying to "appear" like I was the author.

It certainly seems that way when you embed large passages of other people's writings into your own posts without any sort of demarcation (quotes, indents, attributions, etc.) separating your words from those of others, and in fact construct segues to smooth and obscure the transitions.

Geez Ichneumon, did I say I was an expert? No I clearly said I was not one.

Beside the point.

You try to paint me as intellectually dishonest. That is not true.

I demonstrated that you plagiarized. I carefully avoided speculating on your reasons for doing so. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, in fact.

There are interesting theories on why creationists do this so much, and rely on quotations (or misquotations) so often, but that's too lengthy a topic to get into right now. Suffice to say that many of them do not rely upon presumptions of intellectual dishonesty.

But the point remains that your post was specifically in response to a request for you to describe what *your* level of knowledge was about certain topics. RA's question was, "How much and to what level of big bang cosmology, general relativity, stellar evolution, and planetary formation are you familiar with?" He even mentioned his reason for asking in order to clarify what sort of answer he wanted: "I need to know to gauge my response." He wanted to know so that he wouldn't waste your time giving too much introductory material if you already knew it, or losing you at the start by skipping ahead too much.

So I'm still unclear as to exactly why you felt it apropos to cut-and-paste a few passages of what *other* people had written concerning those fields. It makes sense to cut-and-paste material (*with* attribution) to support an argument, but you weren't asked to make any sort of argument. How does cutting-and-pasting other people's writings help in indicating *your* level of knowledge?

The appearance is that you were hoping that a technical-sounding passage including terms such as "the so-called critical density", "Planck time", "one part in 10 to the 60", and "field equation of general relativity", would give the impression that you were well versed in cosmological and quantum physics. But again, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Feel free to explain what the true motivation was for this inclusion in response to a question about your own personal level of knowledge.

I wasn't aware this was a research paper, demanding footnotes, I thought we were in an internet discussion!

Proper credit does not require footnotes.

Of course I searched and did a cut and paste.

As do I at times. The difference is that I don't blend it into my own paragraphs and leave the impression that I wrote it, and I name the author and/or provide a link to the original source.

You smirk and ooze condescension at my "contributions" which only show that I digested the info.

I only remarked that the passage, "suggests intelligent design. What?!? Yeah" didn't add much to the large paragraph you pasted into your post. I wasn't sure why you felt that inserting it mid-sentence into the paragraph (again, without demarcation) improved it any.

And it hardly does much to "show that you digested the info".

I am impressed with RA, he is an intelligent man that seems to be fair minded.

Yes he is.

I try to be fair minded. I spent quite a bit of time at pro-evolution websites and read their best criticisms to formulate my response sir.

Out of curiosity, how much time had you spent on those sites *before* the start of this thread?

Are you about to tell me you don't rely on other people's arguments when they seem to express it well?

I of course adopt other people's observations or findings this is how we all learn. I do not however appropriate how they "express it". If I like how they express it and feel that it explains/argues a point in a current discussion better than I could craft my own words to address the point, I specifically quote their words and give proper credit. I have no interest in trying to give the impression that I myself was the one who was able to express it that well.

If so, then you are quite the articulate fellow on many subjects.

Why thank you. Just a few of my "greatest hits", presented to show various methods by which other people's works can be properly attributed when included in a post:

Discussion of the theory of cosmic ray bursts causing global cooling and mass extinctions

Why the star Eta Carinae may someday fry the Earth

Rebuttal to yet another flawed creationist probability calculation (and reflections on Behe's "Irreducible Complexity)

Rebuttal to RaceBannon's scattershot anti-evolution essay, part 1

Rebuttal to RaceBannon's scattershot anti-evolution essay, part 2

Discussion of the evolution of the Krebs metabolic cycle

Support for the assertion that biologists overwhelmingly accept evolution

Information on the biochemical evolution of the blood-clotting mechanism

Rebuttal to the assertion that www.biblebelievers.com is a good place to find "fact filled literature" (side trips into animal homosexuality, the Earth's magnetic field, and the geological column)

Evolution of the woodpecker's tongue, and the mammalian eye

Refutation of the lie that Reagan blocked sanctions on Iraq when Saddam gassed the Kurds

Rebuttal to overblown claims of the antiseptic benefits of ozone (and the claim that such use is outlawed in the US)

Rebuttal to the assertion that the stability of some species is contrary to Darwinian predictions

A detailed list of 50+ transitional fossils marking the evolutionary path between fish and elephants

Corrections to a (plagiarized!) scattershot creationist attack on the Urey-Miller experiment, and a digression into right-handed proteins

Another response to yet another (also plagiarized) "refutation" of the Urey-Miller experiment, and reference to more modern abiogenesis research

Rebuttal to some of the more wild/incorrect JFK conspiracy claims

Three papers on current abiogenesis research

Overview of a remarkable memory model which exhibits many of the known attributes of human memory

Rebuttal to misstatements about SJ Gould, and fossils answering several creationist challenges

Answer to the amazing claim that "No scientist would ever use such an ignorant term as 'human evolution.'"

Eighteen references in answer to the creationist claim that "Gene duplication has never been observed"

Refutation of a creationist's claim that neither Gould nor Darwin did any actual research

Refutation of a creationist's claim that "Creationism and creationist are words made up by evolutionists to attack the opponents of evolution"

Refutation of a creationist's claim that "Gould and Eldredge completely rejected Darwinian evolution", and a clarification of the reasons for the sparsity of the fossil record

Punctuated equilibrim is not a departure from Darwin's original theory

Two papers on assembly of proteins by means of non-protein means

Reviews of two "classical music as applied to goofy pop culture" albums

Response to Behe's "Irreducible Complexity", and the Contingency argument

Mathematical analysis of a case where simple evolutionary principles provide a speedup over random chance by a factor of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Musings on creationist probability calculations, and references to abiogenesis papers

A reflection on "drama queens"

Critique of Michael Cremo's "evidence" for 10-million+ year old "modern" man

More JFK conspiracy nonsense addressed

Addressing misconceptions that there are still lots of "sealed" JFK records

Overview of the evidence for the involvement of an asteroid strike in the extinction of the dinosaurs

Followup to the above post

Critique of the book of Enoch in regards to astronomical accuracy

Musings on the identity of the biblical "Behemoth" and "Leviathan"

Explanation of why shared endogenous retroviruses are extremely strong evidence for common descent

Explanation of nested hierarchies, and how individuals in evolving species still manage to mate with their cohorts

My analysis of specific basepair mutations in a small stretch of the "Vitamin C" gene, and its implications for evolution

References to the eternally predicted (from 1840 onward) but slow to arrive "death of evolution"

Why lists of "people who doubt evolution" don't matter

Discussion with a thoughtful creationist

Specific comparison of a gene as found in humans, chimps, gorillas, and orangutans

A modest proposal to a creationist

Further discussion of the modest proposal

Exposition on the Dodo (and its evolutionary history)

Rebuttal to various creationist errors concerning the Grand Canyon

Discussion of Archaeopteryx, and why it's not "just a bird" or "just a reptile". Also, details on the fraudulent 'Archaeoraptor' fossil

I find a big hole in ICR's "Carbon 14" paper

Explanation of why young-Earth "findings" carry a larger burden of proof than more conventional findings, and why it's rational to consider them with skepticism

Critique of a new-agey "resonance theory of thought"

Description of one of the many ways that sexual reproduction can arise from asexual origins

On the origins and temperament of Rottweilers

Why the Piltdown hoax wasn't so obviously a hoax at first

How geckos stick to walls

How to learn to not flinch while shooting a gun

More updates on abiogenesis research

Rebuttal to Ashby Camp's attack on talk.origins (a favorite of creationists)

Yes, Virginia, there is calibration of carbon-dating

Rebuttal to creationist attacks on the "peppered moth" example

Review of "Godel, Escher, Bach"

Musing on the original of the esthetic sense

What's wrong with Setterfield's "c-decay" notion (a favorite of creationists)

Epistemology as it concerns the ICR "carbon-dating" paper

On the induced rearrangement of genetic material

Followup to above

The anti-federalist Framers were influential and right on many points

Overview of a paper on the evolution of army ants

Yes, a transistor really is two diodes back to back

How humans and chimps ended up having different number of chromosomes, and how this supports our common ancestry

An examination of DNA showing that yes, contrary to creationist claims, humans really are genetically closer to chimps than nematodes

Thought experiment raising questions about why God only seems to "design" things such that they appear to have come about by evolution, instead of the myriad other ways he could have done so

On the Cambrian fauna and the rise of phyla

More on the above topic

Critique of Lee Spetner's anti-evolution arguments

A ton of links to papers on genetic algorithms

Cladograms of dino-to-bird evolution

Why Danny Glover is despicable

A defense of talk.origins against ill-conceived attacks

Details of Dawkins' "methinks it is like a weasel" evolutionary program

The original fish-to-elephant post, plus dino-to-bird details

My observations on the Second Amendment implications and interpretations of the US. v Miller Supreme Court decision

And not a footnote among them (except when quoting someone else's).

(Note the one in red, it pertains directly to points raised on this thread)

And so on. And yes, all of the arguments, wording, and calculations are my own, except where I have indicated otherwise. The only thing I don't always directly credit are illustrations linked from other sites, because it's easy for the reader to do a "properties" check and see which site/page they came from.

When I said: "For all the chest-beating and things you may have heard the Bible says..." I was trying to ensure we didn't degenerate into something not quoted from the text.

How about when you said, "ignorant restatings of what you 'heard' do not count"? Isn't this a plea to develop an argument from original sources instead of simply "ignorantly" relying on someone else's claims that you haven't checked yourself?

In any case, congratulations. My HUGE secret is exposed!

Just please don't do it again.

I actually use the internet to find information to help me express myself.

Finding information "to help you express yourself" is no problem. We all do that, of course. The problem is going beyond "helping" you express *yourself*, and simply appropriating wholesale other people's expressions in a way that obscures the fact that it *is* someone else's.

396 posted on 01/09/2004 5:21:26 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: exmarine
Just how could an ignoramous creationist like Isaac Newton, or Copernicus, or Galileo, or Kepler, or Farraday, or Maxwell - make the discoveries that they made - being the creationist buffoons that they were and all?

Part of the answer, obviously, is that none of the people you named made any contributions to biology (except Kepler, who found the Fibonacci sequnce in the placement of leaves on stems [phylotaxis]).

In fact, the most famous pre-Darwin biologist, Linnaeus, who invented our present-day system of classifying plants and animals, removed the statement that no new species can arise from later editions of his Systema Naturae See here or here.

397 posted on 01/09/2004 5:34:03 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Virginia-American
In fact, the most famous pre-Darwin biologist, Linnaeus, who invented our present-day system of classifying plants and animals, removed the statement that no new species can arise from later editions of his Systema Naturae See here or here.

If I'm not mistaken he also said:
If I had called man an ape, or vice versa, I would have fallen under the ban of all the ecclesiastics. It may be that as a naturalist I should have done so.

398 posted on 01/09/2004 5:59:19 PM PST by BMCDA
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To: PatrickHenry
And a few of the same disruptors are back -- some with new names, some (who never got banned) are here with their originals. The abuse button is being furiously mashed.

Something tells me this is not a coincidence.

399 posted on 01/09/2004 6:54:29 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Ichneumon
I point this out for two reasons:

I can't believe that no one has yet pointed out that I followed this introduction with *three* reasons, conveniently numbered. *blush*

400 posted on 01/09/2004 6:55:24 PM PST by Ichneumon
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