Posted on 11/26/2003 6:27:25 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
Pretty hard to be a PW when you aren't a prisoner, eh?
She was taken to the so-called "civilian hospital" which was in fact also an HQ for Fedayeen and Iraqi Intel. This is consistent with the Iraqi's practice of using "civilian" facilities such as hospitals and schools as cover. When the rescue team extracted Lynch, they also found at the "hospital" the bodies of her mistreated and executed fellow soldiers (which they dug up by hand), weapons, maps, a sand table for planning military operations and a makeshift torture device consisting of a metal bed frame with the springs of a matresss and a large truck battery with attached metal prods. Source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/970888/posts?page=91#91
This "hospital" was in the control of Iraqi forces untill the day before Lynch was rescued. Even the BBC hit piece which complained that the rescue was unneceessary acknowledes that the Fedayeen had fled the hospital the day before the rescue.
Lynch was in that hospital for 9 days. If the Fedayeen fled 1 day prior to her rescue, that means she was a POW during the 8 preceeding days. While they were in control of the hospital, they interrogated and abused Lynch, according to Mohammed al-Rehaief, one of the Iraqi civilians who provided U.S. forces with information leading to Lynch's recovery, a second civilian who approached NBC reporter Kerry Sanders who was imbedded with U.S. Marines outside Nasiriya and said that Lynch was being held in the hospital and to "tell someone in charge that she is being tortured" and some of the staff of the hospital who spoke to reporters after the city was liberated:
Begin snip
Ahmed Muhsin, a resident doctor at the hospital, said he and other medical workers smuggled food and news of advancing coalition forces to Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch, who was under constant guard while being treated for two broken legs, a broken arm and a fractured back. Saad Abd Alrazaq, a hospital administrator, said Lynch was in shock when she arrived at the hospital. He said that she was given plasma and two transfusions, and that he gave her clothes from his wife's closet because she was covered by little more than a sheet. "She had no family in Iraq, and we felt we were her family," Alrazaq said. "We would visit her often, sometimes with my children."
Lynch and a number of other soldiers from the 507th Ordnance Maintenance Company, along with several from other units, were listed as missing in action after Iraqi forces ambushed their convoy March 23 near Nasiriya. The 19-year-old native of Palestine, West Virginia, a supply clerk with the 507th, was rescued April 1 in a commando raid on the hospital. Lynch's rescuers also discovered the bodies of nine other missing soldiers.
Muhsin said Lynch's guards beat her and tried to stop doctors from checking on her more than twice a day, but that he and others on the staff would give her biscuits, oranges, milk and medicine from their own limited supplies. "She suffered from [the soldiers]," he said. "Largely she suffered from them."
End Snip
A soldier who is injured during an ambush, is taken captive by enemy forces, is held in a hospital/military compound where she is interrogated, beaten, otherwise mistreated and finally rescued by a Special Forces team is in fact a (former) POW.
I'm not sure I want the old Jessica Lynch.
One can't help but wonder what the Iraquis must think about US culture and values when Soshana Johnson was put in harms way while she has an infant at home in the care of her parents.
Now, there's a book I'd like to read...those six former POWs, a few chapters each.
So, let's accept the PH and POW medals...please, please explain the Bronze Star with "V"...I'm afraid that one is bogus (she did not return fire, use a knife, get shot...none of that...and the medical evidence clearly confirms that). What acts of valor did this gal do?
I think the more important question here (forget Lynch entirely here) is: are women in combat a good idea? I have no problem with that! However; the serious question is: are we depending upon a reserve and guard force of poorly trained (for the missions assigned), ill equipped (we still have troops without body armor), and being assigned "missions" that ae far removed from their primary MOS? (Recall that even the soldier who returned fire and was awarded a Silver Star said his weapon jammed repeatedly...but that same weapon, used by each and every Marine in the country, posed no problem for the USMC! You see, Lynch is just an icon to a more perplexing condition...that of sending troops on missions they are not trained to conduct because our warrior trigger pullers are spread too thin. Even the Silver Star winner admits he had not fired his weapon in almost a year before this engagement.
Face it...we will never know the real deal on Lynch, but we clearly know that a rear echelon supply clerk is not a trained truck convoy driver. Why send these folks on this sort of mission (getting lost is not an option!) Could that be just a little career enhancement for the senior folks to load up on performance reports?
Getting lost, seperated, jamming weapons, etc., etc. surely indicate lack of training and leadership, don't yu agree? That being evident, the spin of a heroine, victim, etc. just make a nice diversion from the facts....that our reliance on part time soldiers makes no sense!
As for the Bronze Star with V, she didn't receive a V device for valor. She and the other 5 POWs from her unit who were recovered later received the same awards, Purple Heart, POW Medal and Bronze Star, except for PFC Patrick Miller, the one who actually fired his weapon and received a Silver Star.
Lynch was a captive of enemy forces during the entire 9 days she was missing. The Fedayeen ran away not the day before, but the day of the rescue, if fact just as the initial phase of the rescue commenced. The Marine of Task Force Tarawa initialed a diversionary attack to draw Iraqi forces away from the hospital and immediate area, and overflight by AC 130 drove away remaining guards.
Greg Walker, author of "At the Hurricane's Eye - U.S. Special Operations Forces from Vietnam to Desert Storm" and "SEAL!" and "Teammates" and other titles, and a former editor-in-chief for a past special operations journel entitled "Behind the Lines" made the following commentary on Jessica Lynch's book, "I Am A Soldier Too" at http://forums.military.com/1/OpenTopic now archived at alt.war.pow-mia:
Just returned from second tour in Baghdad, Iraq. Read PVT Lynch's book on the long flight back. Posted on this site more than several months back re: her rescue and the operation conducted to effect that rescue. Some additional notes in lieu of the book and thoughts/observations posted on this thread.
Lynch was dragged from the vehicle and beaten. Those who captured her were the most brutal and devoted to Saddam. The southern portion of Iraq, at the time of the war's beginning, was flooded by Saddam Fey. and Special Security Organization (SSO) forces. They fought as guerrillas in both the urban and rural environments, attacking the main supply routes (MSRs) and defending the cities which we'd stated before hand we would bypass in favor of taking Baghdad. Their attacks on the MSRs became so effective that both the 82nd Airborne Division and the Navy's SEALs were tasked to conduct operations against these guerrillas to protect, as best as possible, the support troops now moving up behind the combat forces. The SEALs conducted nighttime hunter-killer missions in the desert and around known towns and cities where the guerrillas were operating out of. The original fight for Nasiriyah saw the Marines take heavy casualties. They did not like operating in the city because of this. It was house to house, street to street, and their mobile capability was hampered at every turn and faced determined RPG attack(s) as well as determined, fanatical defenders. By the time the 507th wandered into town the Fey./SSO were blooded, had won some hard victories against the Marines, and were eager to tear up yet another US convoy.
The political/religious doctrine of the Fey/SSO was not discussed in the book. In short, Lynch represented everything wrong in their world regarding females, much less Americans, much less an American "Crusader" on sacred soil. In their world she was to be - and was - treated as less than an animal. Being beaten and sexually assaulted was a given. It is truly a miracle she did not die then, or was not killed later simply out of hand. Hers and LP's flak jackets (names taped to their inside panels), and chemical warfare suits (which both were wearing at the time), were recovered by Marines searching buildings and offices near the scene of the attack. Both flak jackets were punctured and blood stained. The chem-bio suits were cut down the fronts of the pants and were likewise bloodied. These were recovered in an upstairs lavatory in the building they'd been taken to and held in initially. It is here, most likely, Lynch was further beaten and assaulted for the 3 hours she does not recall.
When the clothing and flak jackets were found, and their condition described, we knew both young women had been brutalized. Lynch's later presence in the hospital was widely known by the population in general and reports of her presence came in on a consistent basis to those US forces outside NAS. No fewer than 6 locals were interviewed at length regarding Lynch being held at the hospital, with the overrated lawyer being merely one of these and a bit player at that. The Marines at TF Tarawa did not conduct significant interviews with the locals, leaving that to be done by US special operations forces co-located with them. Once it was established beyond a reasonable doubt that Lynch was indeed present and alive, the mission was hastily put together and launched.
In the aftermath of Lynch being rescued the hospital was visited by US Forces. The Marines had already taken a number of light infantry weapons from inside the facility, but US SF forces did recover an additional number of AK47s from the basement area. Also found at the "hospital" were sand tables for the planning of military operations; documents; military equipment and uniforms; torture rooms; and evidence of Iraqi high value targets possibly having been present ("Chemical Ali" and "Dr. Germ").
The area around the hospital was significanty prepped by overhead fires (AC130 gunship) prior to the assault team landing, and rangers from both 1st and 2nd battalion(s) secured the inner perimeter during the assault. The Marines created an outer perimeter using their mech forces. Besides Lynch, the objective was to locate any Iraqi HVTs and kill/capture them; and locate any evidence of weapons of mass destruction being stored at the hospital. Upon entry the assault team reported finding two dead bodies in the hospital's small courtyard, and later additional bodies in the morgue that appeared to be US or Coalition; and then the mass grave site in the soccer field area. No shots were required to be fired during the assault. This due to both the heavy prep of the immediate area just prior to the force going in, and the fact the FEY / SSO had evacuated the hospital upon the initial overhead fire and attack alerting them as to "good guys inbound".
There were a number of casualties from the prep phase and many of these were being treated inside the hospital both during and after the assault. Their numbers grew the morning afterward and after the assault force had fully departed the area. Again, this was the FEY/SSO purpose for using the hospital in the first place as a command and control center, as well as field interrogation site for POWs such as Lynch.
Lynch was flown by Blackhawk to Talil Air Field, then by a specially equipped CH-47 from Talil to Kuwait where she was initially treated and secured before being further evacuated to Germany. As noted, she is fortunate and blessed to have lived through this event. Why her captors did not kill her at any stage of her captivity is unknown. That she was brutalized is a fact. Those other US POWs taken prisoner from the 507th were likewise mistreated in terms of being struck, humiliated, and tortured to one degree or another. They themselves alluded to this during one nationally broadcast interview during which one former POW was reminded by his fellow soldiers they were not to discuss their mistreatment in public.
Lynch's weapon being inoperable was most likely due to dirty magazines, an important piece of the overall M16 weapons system that most support soldiers are never taught how to properly clean and maintain. Dirty magazines were the cause of many malfunctions for this reason throughout the war. The M9 pistol magazine was the worst offender in this respect. A dirty magazine will cause a misfeed and jam a rifle in a heartbeat. It is as likely this occurred for Lynch as anything else. She reports cleaning her rifle. She does not, and if asked today, would probably concur she never took the entire magazine assembly apart for those magazines she was issued and cleaned them...ever. They were most likely fully loaded, and remained loaded for some time during which sand, grit, and the fine Iraqi desert powder coated their interiors and the rounds loaded into them. A formula for malfunction and catastrophic failure if ever there were one. In the end her firing a shot one way or the other would not have made a difference. In fact, it may have been the first of many miracles that ultimately saved her life.
Found the book thoughtfully written and most illustrative of a very fine human being. Jesse became the focal point of a huge war machine that needed a victory badly on that first day in April. She truly has no idea how many were watching and from where. Her composure even under the worst circumstances, as video taped on scene and rushed to Camp Doha, Kuwait, upon her arrival in country, galvanized US and Coalition forces across the theatre.
The entire experience was far bigger than Jesse Lynch. She was at its core, and she demonstated with a wan smile, hands clutching at a folded American flag laid across her, and with eyes that bespoke the horror of her captivity that the least among us had been wounded and mistreated, and that the best among us had gone for her and brought her home. For the American Soldier this message came across loud and clear. And it invoked a wrath, a fury, a pride, and a determination for both vengence and victory that saw literally thousands of FEY/SSO/RA/RG/SRG forces killed without mercy or concern as our forces trampled them in the rush to Baghdad. No one but a soldier, sailor, airman or Marine can or will understand this. But it is the Truth and no words, books, or interviews will ever capture the Spirit this event invoked from 1 April until Baghdad was taken. Lynch is more than a hero. She became and remains a powerful and positive symbol to those who identified with her from the moment she was captured, to the moment she was freed.
A warrior who didn't know how to maintain a weapon and eho never fired a shot? (Remember, the contentions are that she surrendered and was "brutally beaten" post "capture")
Soory...bodies in morgues are common place and to be expected...ditto KIAs in graves.
Next time yu're near any large US medical facility, check and see if there isn't a war contingency area in it (a university, medical center, etc.)...we, too, make room for war contingency command areas in our facilities.
Hero? Not in my book. And yes, I served...in combat, as a grunt and am a WIA and retired carer militart member!
you're changing the argument. Your original point was that Lynch was never a POW. If your point had been that she was not a hero, there would be no dispute right now. Lynch herself has said that she is not a hero.
QUOTE:
Sorry, Chief...but Lynch was never a PW...not in a civilian hospital...and remember...no resistance during the "daring", MTV crew military PA corps smashing of doors?
Purple, maybe...POW/BS w V...never!
38 posted on 11/26/2003 11:17 PM PST by NMFXSTC
You stated that Lynch was not a POW. Whether she was dragged out of the vehicle and beaten or the vehicle crashed after taking fire, she was injured by enemy action, taken by enemy forces to a hospital that they were using as a base and where they kept her under guard, a captive. Sounds like a POW to me. That is what I am disputing with you, not that she is a hero or warrior.
As for that last paragraph, "a powerful and positive symbol" that is not refering to Lynch as a hero or warrior. "the least among us had been wounded and mistreated, and that the best among us had gone for her and brought her home. For the American Soldier this message came across loud and clear. And it invoked a wrath, a fury, a pride, and a determination for both vengence and victory"
That refers to the true heros who rescued Lynch, the message was that we would not leave any behind.
Your statement "no resistance during the "daring", MTV crew military PA corps smashing of doors" belittles those men, "the best among us," who risked their lives to rescue "the least among us." You parrot the BBC trash with this slur. How were they to know what they would find in that hospital? Perhaps a trap, an ambush, the building wired to explode, a suicide bomber... In that situation, no way could they go in with anything less than overwhelming force. Would you have just knocked on the door and aksed for our POW back if you were in their place?
I didn't want the first one.
Allow me to rephrase that; I didn't want the media and the NOW nags pushing the myth of Jessica Lynch in my face.
I'm sure you are very proud of her and I thank her for her service.
Here's my question - - sort of a hypothetical:
In the event the country should have to resort to a draft, assuming they would serve only in the jobs (MOS's) they are now serving in, should women be part of that draft?
Be carefull making assumptions, I learned that lesson the hard way on the videotaping subject, see this thread post #231. I also thought that the videotaping was unusual, boy was I wrong, it turns out that these special ops missions are almost all videotaped.
QUOTE:
Whenever there has been a high profile special ops raid with TV eye appeal be it a special ops raid on a Taliban command center or a Presidential Palace, or a parachute jump, or a raid on a big dam or even (the shame of it all) the rescue of an American POW, the videos have been released to the press.
If you want to spend the money just go to those links and you can even buy yourself copies of those Iraqi War special ops raid videos that had nothing to do with Lynch.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1017830/posts?page=231
NO! Not until the previous misadministrations policy exposing women to greater risk is reversed, anyway.
At this point that would probably be impossible unless we make it policy that women in uniform not be deployed outside of CONUS.
Allow me to rephrase the question: As long as there are women in uniform in any capacity (MOS), and the need for a draft arises, should women be drafted?
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