Bush says Muslims and Christians Worship Same God

CNN | 11/20/03

[CharacterCounts]

No, Christians and Jews worship Jehovah God, God Almighty. Muslims worship Allah, a 3000 year old moon god that was a local god at best. They are not the same

There is some evidence that the name Allah referred to a pre-islamic god. There is also som evidence that Jehovah or Jahveh is of Egyptian origin and also referenced a moon god. Both theories are contradicted by other evidence.

Since a good deal of Christian tradition has pagan origins including elements of the celebration of Christmas ( and I am not saying Christmas is a pagan holiday, only that some of its origins and characteristics are)I think it is shortsighted to attribute an entire belief system to the supposed origin of one word.

[Sabertooth]

Can you provide a quote from Muslim authority? Because, as I understand it, Islam says Allah has NO son. If their god has no son, and the Christian God has a Son (whom the Christian believes is one person of the triune God), surely the Muslim would say the Christian worships a false -- and thus different -- god.

At least that Muslim wouldn't be guilty of ecumenism, a more modern heresy. More Christians should take note.

[carton253]

The basic tenants of the Islam faith is that the Jews were the first to receive the revelation. The revelation was polluted in their care, hence came the second revelation to Jesus. Unfortunately, the Word was polluted again by Christians.

That's why God had to reveal it to Muhammad. It is a final revelation, and it has not been polluted since the Qur'an manages to get it down word for word correctly.

If you want to know what the Muslims believe, then do an Internet search... I'm sure you can find Muslim scholars who will be able to instruct you.

I know the differences between the three religions. I know they are irreconcilable. But, I am speaking from the vantage point of a Muslim... Allah is the God of Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus and Mohammad is his prophet too. The last prophet.

[k2blader]

Ugh.

Sometimes I really think Prez Bush should hush up.

The Triune God of the Christian faith is *not* the false god of the Muslim faith.

And the main reason is this: Muslims don't believe Jesus is the Son of God--they believe he was just a man, a prophet. Which is in direct opposition to the fundamental belief Christians hold.

[DollyCali]

Hi.. I probably could have more names here but just picked a few....just scanning the thread quickly.. Interesting how a few words out of the president's mouth can cause so must interesting discussion, isn't it?

A great book to examine the existence of God is called:
Evidence Demands Verdict (and there are several sequels) by Josh McDowell. I would recommend it (all of them) to those who are searching or feel they already have their feet grounded "somewhere"..

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/index.shtml

Josh began as a goal to prove GOD did not exist & Christianity was invalid. He has put together a great set of books that will appeal to all aspects of the search for God/NO GOD. Skeptics & believers will equally appreciate the depth of the scientific research, methinks..

Sun is shining in NE Ohio, that means the bike needs to be "worked out" - she really gets cranky when left unused on a great day.

[discipler]

This is Bush's weakness. He's simply wrong on this point. Those who know the Bible and those who know the Quran know it is untrue.

The best we can hope for is that the true believers of Islam can somehow interpret their book to allow for individual freedom of choice. Christianity allows for free will. Christians may be evangelistic desiring to make converts, there is no desire to kill those who reject. God will sort all of that out on judgment day.

[SupplySider]

"The Almighty is the Almighty. I agree with President Bush."

Amen. All good people, whether they know it or not, worship the same God. (The bad people all worship the same guy, too. ;) )

I agree.

If God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, eternal, and infinite, by definition there can only be one. The only way you can argue different Gods is to define God as a being with some set of limiting characteristics. It doesn't make sense to me to argue that one's God is limited.

Of course, this does not condone atrocities by ignorant terrorists. They need to know God more.

[Wallace T.]

At best, the existence of God, that is a Supreme Being Who existed before time began and Who created the universe out of nothing, may be deduced from observations of nature. We must, however, ask ourselves as to the reliability of observation. There is the story of the West Texas rancher who, assuming all waterlike reflections on the road were mirages, drove his pickup truck into a lake. I might sit in a field and see 400 grey mourning doves in a day and conclude that all mourning doves are grey. However, the 401st dove may not be grey. Granted, there is an increasing volume of evidence that implies the existence of intelligent design and therefore the existence of a designer. But there are limits to the use of the empirical method. Even Aquinas, the champion of the empirical method, said that the revelations about God shown in the Scripture could not be proven by this method. "To say that statements are nonsense unless verifiable by sensation, is itself a statement that cannot be verified by sensation. Observation can never prove the reliability of observation." (Gordon Clark, "How Does Man Know God?")

Every philosophy must have a foundational truth, an irreducible axiom. To the Christian, the foundational truth is the truth of Scripture. Every philosophy, even nihilism, is based on some fundamental position. Kurt Cobain or Friedrich Nietzsche accepted certain observations as self-evident as much as did Augustine of Hippo or John Calvin. Empriricism has a presupposition as much as Christianity and nihilism: that truth can be obtained (and in some varieties, like logical positivism, only obtained) by observation. Alfred Whitehead and Ayn Rand held to presuppositions as much as did Anselm or Martin Luther. "Since, therefore, every philosophy must have its first indemonstrable axiom, the secularists cannot deny the right of Christianity to choose its own axiom." (Clark, op. cit.)

[A. Pole]

The basic tenants of the Islam faith is that the Jews were the first to receive the revelation. The revelation was polluted in their care, hence came the second revelation to Jesus. Unfortunately, the Word was polluted again by Christians. That's why God had to reveal it to Muhammad. It is a final revelation, and it has not been polluted since the Qur'an manages to get it down word for word correctly.

That is why Muslims are not permitted to read the Bible which they are told is distorted and corrupted.

But, I am speaking from the vantage point of a Muslim... Allah is the God of Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus and Mohammad is his prophet too. The last prophet.

How Allah can be God of the Bible if the present Bible is corrupt and distorted? Either Koran is the authentic document or the Bible of Christians and Jews is.

We can look at third party (non-religious, history, archeology etc ...) evidence to see if the Koran represents the original older version of the Bible before Jews/Christians allegedly distorted it.

[petercooper]

Not!

[Geritol]

Two men met who were from the same small town. they got to talking and discovered that they had the same last name. After further discussion they found that their fathers have the same name and they are both men of about the same age. Oddly enough neither of the men had seen their fathers since they were children. They start discussing the possibility that they are brthers. So they begin comparing their dads.

First one starts off saying his dad is real tall, which he would be to any child, and the second agrees that his dad fits the bill. one says he was real strong, and the other agrees. One says he had a hearty laugh, as did the other. So far so good.

Then things start to change. First one describe his dad's hair, his beard, his mustache, his dress. These things could be changed easily, and details misremembered from childhood, so after some thought they agree that it still could be the same man.

Then he describes his dad's face and his character. The things he taught them and the way he dealt with people. Now there is a definite difference. One man is kindly, merciful, laughing at a good joke, generous to strangers. The other is scornful, bitter, prone to take rather than give, taking pleasure in the pain of others. One family had taken in orphans and the other had actually driven out a daughter that had fallen out of favor. The one father taught his sons and daughters of the equality of all people, the other said that only his sons really mattered. One face showed power with self restraint, the other looked simply vengeful and sullen.

After all this they finally decided that they were not sons of the same man. They were not brothers.

The first man invites the second to dinner to talk about the town and childhood. In spite of not being brothers they still have a fair amount in common. The second man simply scowls and pulls the pin.

[Geritol]

If I insist that I am a doctor because I have read the same thousand year old medicine books that modern medicine has it's roots in, you would rightly say I am insane or stupid.

If I insist that Snoop Dawg is Elvis because the music has some of the same roots, you would obviously call me blind.

In the same manner saying that any 2 groups are worshipping the same actual person whether creator, angel, demon, spirit, man or ghost simply because the founders read the same books is rather negating the concept of an actual God.

If one man says that he works for the queen of England and describes the historical actual person of the queen and shows how he serves her, and If I say I also work for the queen, but then proceed to describe Hillery or any other person on the planet besides the queen herself in form, power, actions and character, we are not serving the same person. One of us is deceived or lying.

God is a real person, more real than any man. To say that you serve him but to actually serve a different person with a different character and teaching means that you have stolen God's name and applied it to something else. Few if any people serve Him perfectly, and some might even argue that no one serves the true creator in this day, but to totally hijack the name and smear the character means that you are actually worshipping something else entirely.

[carton253]

How Allah can be God of the Bible if the present Bible is corrupt and distorted? Either Koran is the authentic document or the Bible of Christians and Jews is.

It's not the God that has been distorted but it is His revealed word that has been twisted... that is why Mohommad was needed by God in the first and last place. Only Mohommad got it down correctly without corruption.

We can look at third party (non-religious, history, archeology etc ...) evidence to see if the Koran represents the original older version of the Bible before Jews/Christians allegedly distorted it.

Let me know what you find.

[A. Pole]

First one starts off saying his dad is real tall, which he would be to any child, and the second agrees that his dad fits the bill. one says he was real strong, and the other agrees. One says he had a hearty laugh, as did the other. So far so good. Then things start to change. First one describe his dad's hair, his beard, his mustache, his dress. These things could be changed easily, and details misremembered from childhood, so after some thought they agree that it still could be the same man.

And then one said that his father made living by robbery, killed those who disagreed with him and married a child, the other one said that his father was chaste, told to love one's enemies and to turn the second cheek.

<SARCASM> Only the bigot would not see that both fathers are alike.</SARCASM>

[milan]

I will give you Bahrain.

Qatar (where our command headquarters are),

Our command headquarters are there becuase we gave them $$$. They did not offer to assist us, we had to pry it out of them.

Yes the stans have been helpful ($$$). The also want our $$$ to get them out of the crap hole they call home. If they were not so needy (like Turkey not truly needing our support) they wouldn't be so helpful.

Okay, my foot is in my mouth on Bahrain...that is it.

[newgeezer]

Of course. None of that refutes my post.

I guess the "same god" is just a matter of semantics to some. However, I would think the devoted Muslim would take much the same view as the devoted Christian, and that would be that the other worships a false god, and not the god of the Koran (or, the God of the Bible).

Basic understanding of who He is is essential to the faith. For one thing, if you don't believe Jesus is God, you worship a different God than I do. Secondly, if you don't believe in God the Father (your god has no son), you worship a different God than I do. And so on.

But, thanks just the same.

[milan]

Few if any people serve Him perfectly, and some might even argue that no one serves the true creator in this day, but to totally hijack the name and smear the character means that you are actually worshipping something else entirely.

Hmmmm. Good explanation.

[A. Pole]

It's not the God that has been distorted but it is His revealed word that has been twisted... that is why Mohommad was needed by God in the first and last place. Only Mohommad got it down correctly without corruption.

Really?

[A. Pole:] We can look at third party (non-religious, history, archeology etc ...) evidence to see if the Koran represents the original older version of the Bible before Jews/Christians allegedly distorted it.

[carton253:] Let me know what you find.

That Muhammad knowledge was second hand, partially based on the apocryphas circulating in Arab world of his time. That the archeological findings (like Dead Sea scrolls) confirm the basic authenticity of the Jewish and Christian scriptural traditions. Do not take my word, see for yourself - go to the library (I did).

[milan]

Either Koran is the authentic document or the Bible of Christians and Jews is.

Exactly. That is why what Bush said is wrong.

[carton253]

None of that refutes my post.

Sure it does... you just missed the forest for the trees.

And you're welcome... just the same.