[althecat]

Hi,

I am a new poster to the Free Republic. And I am very interested in Free Republic members views on this article.

From what I understand this article - which appeared as a four page lift-out special investigation in the Independent Newspaper of London on Tuesday - led to an item on the subject being broadcast on Fox News yesterday evening.

This story is now clearly gaining traction.

By way of declaration of interest I am the editor of the Scoop.co.nz website in New Zealand and was involved in breaking this story. I also confess to being a regular poster over at DU (but I hope that my being a Kiwi - neutral territory presumably - might allow me the liberty of participating here too... I guess that will be up to the mods.)

Anyways... I will be checking into this thread and plan on participating in discussions of this issue over here if it is ok.

regards Al

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[stands2reason]

N.Z. troll alert...

[stands2reason]

Ping?

[MEG33]

Having read the Independent's biased reporting,I am on my guard.I know this,there has never been a perfect election,perfect polls and perfect voter interviews.

I recall in the late 40's the papers had Dewey wins on the front page(Truman won).I say to them.Clean your own house.

[Fledermaus]

I also confess to being a regular poster over at DU (but I hope that my being a Kiwi - neutral territory presumably - might allow me the liberty of participating here too... I guess that will be up to the mods.)

If you want the mods to allow your participation, then I think that's great. But can you admit the mods at DU not as tolerant? Can you admit the bashing over there of anyone that even smells of conservative gets trashed and you think it's awful?

I personally think if you are willing to come here and make your points with regard to those that disagree and you debate fairly without childish attacks and name calling, then you are welcome.

If you think the DU standards should be applied here (personal attacks, not debating the issue, Bush=Hitler posts, etc.) then you should just give up.

[k2blader]

What's to discuss?

President Bush won the 2000 election several times already.

[Once-Ler]

This may be gaining traction in the UK but in America it is going nowhere.

The reason the polls in GA were off is they used faulty voter turnout information. They underestimated, as they often do, Republican turn out and underestimated 'rat apathy...especially the extremely anemic black turnout.

Just more goofy conspiracy theory for the 'rats who refuse to face reality. I can only pray the 'rats keep on drinking the Kool-Aid and deluding themselves. This particular conspiracy does not explain Republican gains in the rest of the nation in 2002. Nor does it explain Republican control in the US House and Senate in 2000, 1998, 1996, or 1994. It doesn't explain why Republicans have gained control of a majority of Governorships, state legislatures, and a majority of state legislators for the first time in since the Great Depression.

I only hope we have a long a run as the 'rats did.

[ambrose]

Funny, but I seem to recall that one of the electronic voting machine companies donated cash to Gray Davis' "no on recall" campaign. Another electronic voting machine company funded a study which the ACLU has used to challenge punch card voting.

If anyone has cause to be worried about fraud, it is the Republicans, given the Rats' long and sorry history of stealing elections.

That said, vote counting shouldn't be the cause of partisan finger pointing. I believe that if our elections are to have integrity, a blue ribbon commission should be created to determine the best, most accurate, and fairest methods to count votes. Each party would appoint its own representatives to the commission.

I personally favor old fashioned paper ballots, along with strictly enforced rules to prevent illegal aliens, felons, etc., from voting.

[Neanderthal]

It's great to see that the 'Pubbies are finally in the game. It's been discouraging to have to watch the 'Rats continually steal votes in election after election while the 'Pubbies were looking the other way.

[AFPhys]

welcome to FR... you'll find the tenor quite different than that at DUh. ... and you don't have to fear being banned just for the crime of having a different opinion than some of the others here. Simply have respect when writing.

As far as the article: all the voting methods have their own inherent problems, and I don't doubt that touchscreens do, too. The "election fraud" fears angle being played up here is just great press, and stokes up the Demodogs, for sure. There is no way any amount of fraud by manipulating the machines is close to the good, old-fashioned fraud the Demodogs have been perpetrating since the old Daley Chicago days - vote every dead person at least twice, etc. - which certainly adds several percent to every Demodog candidate in every large urban area in this country - and the fraud committed by the lamestream media's distortions and liberal bias.

[ambrose]

The other reason I'd be dubious of this article is that Georgia was under the iron grip of the Democrats prior to the 2002 elections. It goes without saying that it is very difficult to pull off election fraud in a jurisdiction that you do not control.

Another thing to point out is that the pollsters STUNK in 2002. That doesn't mean the elections were rigged. It means that the cliche "the only vote that counts is the vote cast on election day" is TRUE. Moreover, one polling firm (surveyusa.com) absolutely nailed most of the 2002 election results, further deflating the conspiracy theory notions.

[HitmanLV]

With any new technology, there are going to be problems. These machines may end up being too problematic for continued use, maybe they can work out the kinks in it so that it is reliable.

The perspective of the article does betray a mindset, though - it seems to have difficulty comprehending the legitimacy of a Republican win in Georgia. Far from it - it is certainly credible, and how anyone can find it incredible reveals a terrible bias and a tenuous hold on reality. Polls are often wrong, and sometimes wildly wrong.

I lived in NYC in the early 1990s, and I remember the 1994 Governors race - Cuomo and Pataki were playing 'tag' in the polls, though on election eve, most polls had Cuomo leading comfortably in the home stretch - not unexpected as NY is a heavy democratic state. The result - Pataki won convincingly, and was part of a national Republican sweet that has dominated Congress for most of the 1990s except for shared power and Democrat Senate control from 2001-2002.

Now in 1998 Pataki ran again, with sentiment high against impeachment nationally, and especially so in NYS. The result? Pataki won comfortably, though the Republican AG lost a close race, and Chuch Schumer was comfortably elected to the senate. Less sophisticated people would look at the results as incongruent, somewhat unpredictable, but there is no logical reason that the typical NY voter wouldn't vote that way.

The polls were a bit off, for sure. Was it some left wing plan to get rid of Dennis Vacco and D'Amato? Of course not - they lost, even though some didn't expect them to lose.

The Georgia situation merits some attention, just to get to the bottom of irregularities that happen everywhere, nationwide on election day. Some precintcs in Philadelphia, for example, on large elections report close to 100% turnout, which is possible, but it isn't consistent with reality in those precicnts. That is, how can an electorate so civilly minded and informed allow itself to lag behind in money, resoruces, infrastructure, etc, at the local and state level? Seems to me such a vibrant electorate would scare the heck out an an elected official - yet, the same faces keep getting elected, comfortably, and the status quo remians the same.

Impossible? Certainly not? Prima Facie evidence of chicanery? Not necessarily. Worth a closer look? No question. Same with the case of the new machines in GA.

I do see a strange reasoning in this article - just a basic unwillingness to accept that sometimes a party wins, sometimes one loses. Bush did a great job in bringing national issues to some select races nationwide - he cashed in his popularity and helped his hand-picked people win. Bush won Georgia with a comfy margin in 2000 - it's not unreasonable to think he would have clout with the voters of GA in 2002.

I don't see why you consider the story as clearly having traction though - how can you come to that conclusion when the story appears in a newspaper thousands of miles away, yet most people in Georgia haven't made much an issue about this? 'Traction' means genuine interest by the electorate, not newspaper editors and tv producers stateside. The latest bust is the CIA leak, which if you watched the news, had 'traction,' but clearly people had no interest in a complicated and convoluted situation, even though the leak as a story is legitimate.

It didn't stick on Bush and likely won't. That's not to say it won't at a later date, or some other scandal won't flare. 'Yellowcake' had traction on the talking head shows but the typical voter has no idea about it, and no interest in learning.

Over at DU I noticed similar dismay over the recall election results. To some people, the fact that a republican won the election handily was an impossibility - and evidence that the election was fixed. That's downright nutty, to be honest. If the 'fix' was indeed on, why didn't the conspiracy help Simon win just 10 months ago? If indeed the fix was in, why didn't the party GOP stall the election till they could use the new voting machines, which the suggestion is the GOP has the fix in, anyway? If that mindset is accepted, real sentiment wouldn't matter a lick. So it doesn't add up, on several levels.

In other words, a view that 'when we win, the people have spoken, when we lose, there must have been some subversion of the democratic process' is myopic and troublesome. In politics, sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose. Accepting that is important in displaying emotional maturity. Denial isn't a river in Egypt, you know.

'Traction' sometimes takes time. This ain't traction. It may end up being traction, wait and see.

[ThirstyMan]

What is this article suggesting? That pollsters are always right? If this premise were accepted as an operational truism, we could eliminate the need for our entire voting system! Why should we bother with voting? Let's just have the liberal media pollsters tell us who won.
Obviously research based on the false circuitous premise that their research is always right, will come to even more false conclusions! Puh-lese!

The integrity of any voting system needs more than a bunch of red-faced pollsters to legitimately conclude that the election was rigged.
You've never noticed the bias of a pollster?
You've never suspected poll results?
I've seen polls used to shape political opinion plenty!
I would never trust their flexible art as a basis for crying foul.
This is one more of what has become an expected but tiring refrain from the Democrat losers.

[ambrose]

Well, next time don't tell them you're from the DU.

To be fair, the DU would ban anyone admitting to be a Freeper.

[AHerald]

Exit polling data in these races mirrored the final election results. Unless the voting software can also generate flesh and blood voters who walk out of voting booths and then tell pollsters that they just voted for a Republican candidate, there is no story here.

The Left can't simply accept the fact that voters might actually vote for a Republican over a Democrat; so they latch on to nutty conspiracy theories instead of confronting the growing reality that they are a political movement in decline, bereft of new ideas and increasingly unable to connect with the average voter.

[dawn53]

IMHO, the swing toward Republicans candidates can easily be explained. Don't blame the voting machines, or the methods, blame September 11th, 2001.

[sweetliberty]

The author obviously doesn't have the knowledge (or is choosing to ignore it) of the serious problems that exist in this country with voter fraud, which incidentally is perpetrated by 99.9% democRATs.

Opinion polls reflect the opinions of those chosen to respond (often carefully chosen) so are not a good indicator in many cases of the opinion of the larger populous.

Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thing. I don't have time at the moment. I will finish it later.

[Prodigal Son]

By way of declaration of interest I am the editor of the Scoop.co.nz website in New Zealand and was involved in breaking this story. I also confess to being a regular poster over at DU (but I hope that my being a Kiwi - neutral territory presumably - might allow me the liberty of participating here too... I guess that will be up to the mods.)

Posting that bit wasn't your best move.

[glock rocks]

[Vigilantcitizen]

Al, Sorry that you got banned before I could reply to this speculative pile of tripe. I've lived here in Georgia most of my 36 years. Since the author obviously wasn't interested in the real reasons why the dims got voted out,which would distract from his premise of voter fraud, I'll take the time to explain.

First, Roy Barnes was tossed mainly because he pissed off the school teachers. He got elected the first time on a promise of giving teachers raises, and then renigged on that promise. He was quoted in the AJC as saying,"We can win without the teachers vote, let them eat cake." Not a smart move on King Roy's part, as the results indicate.

My Father grew up in the town of Mableton, where Roy is from. Roy has always been an elitist, pompous ass. He got what he deserved.

Secondly, like Cynthia Mckinney, Max Cleland got voted out because his vote record leaned toward the extreme left of democratic views, while he tried his best to portray himself as another Zell Miller, who you notice is still in office.

If you knew anything about the state of Georgia and her citizens, you'd know that we are an America loving bunch, with many citizens that have served or are serving our nation. Just about every small town has some kind of memorial to war dead located in their town squares.

If you watched any coverage of the Iraq war, you've heard about the 3rd ID, which led the invasion of Bagdad and is located in Georgia. You would've seen Captain Chris Watkins flying the flag of the Georgia Bulldogs while sitting on the steps at one of Saddam's palaces.

If you would've been here in Douglas county when pow Ronald Young came home and seen the celebration given in his honor at the local high school football stadium which pretty much shut the whole town down that Friday evening. I've never seen that stadium as full as it was that evening.

Knowing that us Georgians love our nation and those that serve it, it doesn't take a political science major to figure out that 9-11 helped turn the tide over to the republican side of the ailse, like the rest of the country.

Next time, save yourself the trouble of looking like a dumbass and just ask us. We're really a friendly bunch, and don't mind telling people how we feel.

Have a good day.