Posted on 03/22/2018 11:06:30 AM PDT by Elderberry
Even though modest in power, I would think the 110 gr. would be a better brush-buster than the puny 55 gr. (?) M-16 in the jungle.
Yes, limited by the specialized application: unique magazine-fed semi-automatic design. If a generic round, would benefit from a slightly lighter hollow point. (I don’t think anyone makes one; it wouldn’t work in the action?)
He was a small man, and naturally gifted - and motivated - so I think he would make do with just about anything, but it was a good design for him.
m16 round 55 gr, 3250 feet per second
m1 carbine 110 gr, 1990 feet per second
which has more punch after hitting some shrubbery ?
I had forgotten about the .256...
Not talking about punch, talking about accuracy (deflection).
30 Carbine 110 GR FTX Critical Defense®
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/30-carbine-110-gr-ftx-critical-defense#!/
The M1 has about as much punch as a 357 mag, which quite a lot of bunch.
The BAR could have been greater, if it had had replaceable barrels like the Bren, and maybe also optional larger-capacity magazines.
Okay. Thanks.
In dense jungle you see little if anything of the target. The M16 was a good jungle penetrator and accurate. You typically ended up firing at muzzle flashes and sound most of the time. You had to lay down heavy fire to suppress enemy fire and allow flankers to maneuver to get a visual. The M14 at 7.62x51 compared to the M1 carbine 7.62x33 was a great jungle round, but was replaced by the M16 to the dismay of a lot of combat infantryman.
I owned an M1 carbine in the 70s-80s built by National Ordinance which just meant it was built using parts from multiple carbines. Was a good rifle. At 5 inches shorter than an M16 it is a good brush gun. A lot of cussing over the front sight of the M16 tangling in dense jungle foliage in the 60's.
I have one, I’ve never fired it but I do like the “feel” of it. I like the sights too, military sights are easier on my old eyes.
“...The wildcat cartridge that should’ve been developed for the carbine back in the ‘60s was a critter known as the .30 Kurz - basically a necked-down version of the German Stg-44 cartridge. The 8mm Kurz is the same length as the .30 Carbine cartridge, so magazines would be adaptable. ...” [Charles Martel, Post 71]
30 Kurz, and its slightly longer descendant 308x1.5, could not work in the M1 Carbine. Both rounds used shortened 7.62mm NATO cases; head diameter was too large to fit into the Carbine’s bolt face. Additionally, the magazine was too narrow for the fatter cartridges.
The late Frank C Barnes had a major hand in the development of both rounds, which were inspired by the 7.92x33 Kurz, designed by Polte for the Nazis and fired in the MP-44 (later the StG-44). Interested forum members may read about it in earlier editions of _Cartridges of the World_, which Barnes edited initially.
5.56mm NATO - based on the 222 Remington, introduced in 1950 - owns a case head dimension too big to fit the Carbine also. Several wildcats based on the 30 Carbine cartridge necked down to 22 cal were developed, including one attributed to Melvin M Johnson, designer of the Johnson Rifle and Machine Guns. But the powder capacity was so small that the cartridges were unable to meet military minimum criteria for kinetic energy and downrange retained velocity. Several redesigns of the Carbine were undertaken, scaling it up sufficiently to handle the 222 and higher-powered rounds developed from it (two became the 223 Remington and 222 Remington Magnum, respectively).
“...David Williams designed the de facto prototype (with/for Winchester?) in prison (convicted murderer) - chronicled in “Carbine Williams” starring James Stewart (1952). This is one of several patriotic bio-pics with onetime Brigadier General Stewart.
The selective M-2 Carbine came later....”
Legend has it that David Marshall Williams designed the M1 Carbine himself: it’s widely believed in the civilian gun-enthusiast community but is not supported by any documentation.
Williams did invent the short-stroke gas piston which was used in the Carbine operating system. He also invented the moving-chamber concept used by Colt’s in its Service Ace 22 rimfire pistol and 22/45 conversion units for its Government Model pistol, and in Remington’s Model 550 rimfire autoloading rifle.
A designer with an unusually fertile imagination, he was given a job at Winchester in 1939 and made notable contributions to various designs. But he was found to be unusually difficult to work with and did not last long there.
The M1 Carbine was the final winner in the US Army Ordnance Light Rifle program, launched in 1938. The stated objective was to create a weapon with greater effective range than the standard service pistol, with half the weight of the M1 Garand rifle, to equip support personnel, vehicle & gun crews, and the like (as war loomed, only 1 in 6 soldiers was a front-line infantryman). Select fire was an initial requirement, but this was soon dropped.
About a dozen gunmakers responded with designs to the first development phase; Winchester’s entry appeared to have the most promise. Ordnance scheduled a second round of trials. Winchester was told to develop the cartridge; they came up with a round supposedly based on an alteration of their 32 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge, introduced early in the 20th century but obsolete by the 1920s.
Several manufacturers brought improved models to the second trial session. Winchester’s design was selected and formally adopted as US Carbine, caliber 30, M1 in September 1941.
Most of the Carbine was designed by a team of Winchester engineers. They leaned heavily on early Winchester self-loading centerfire rifles: the Models 1905, 1907, and 1910. All operated by blowback and chambered straight-walled semi-rimmed cartridges, proprietary to Winchester. A number of Carbine parts closely resemble those in the earlier guns.
Late in the war, requests from the field forces renewed the push for a full-auto Carbine; the M2 was designed and adopted. Conversion kits were made up, to refit M1s already in the field. A bayonet lug was added also.
This narrative was documented some years ago and appeared in the print edition of American Rifleman magazine.
I had an old friend who was a Vietnam vet and he was hammering a VC with his M16 who was charging him and he kept coming. His comrade had an M1 Carbine M2 and he cut loose on the VC at about 20 yards and said it was like someone hit him with a poleaxe it dropped him so fast.
I had a worthless 3rd cousin try to rob a store and the owner hit him 5 times with a carbine. It put him down and he was caught, but he lived. Seeing how he survived was the reason when I bought my carbine I made sure I had some soft point hunting rounds on hand and just used the FMJ military surplus for practice.
That 110 lead JHP is a vicious round for self defense. Good selection!
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