On This Day in History

[DiogenesLamp]

I agree with both of ya. Sherman was ruthless, but war is war, it aint pretty. Having said that, I think the South legitimately thought they could legally secede. Lincoln thought otherwise.

No he didn't. He is on record supporting the position that people have a right to secede. He simply didn't let what he believed get in the way of what he needed to do to maintain power.

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better-- This is a most valuable, -- a most sacred right -- a right, which we hope and belive, is to liberate the world--Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government, may choose to exercise it--Any portion of the such people of an existing government that can may revolutionize, and make their own, of so much of the teritory as they inhabit--More than this, a majority of any portion of the such people of an existing government,-- may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movement--Such minority, was precisely the case, of the tories of our own revolution--It is not the qual a quality of revolutions, not to go by old lines, or old laws; but to break up both, and make new ones--..."

So you see, the Race Obsessed Liberal Lawyer from Illinois was for it before he was against it.

Had the South been broke and penniless, he would have been happy to let them go, (as we did with Cuba and the Philippines) but what a lot of people didn't understand is that the South was producing 3/4ths of all the trade with Europe, and their economic influence on the whole nation was quite serious.

Since the Federal government at the time was funded only by tariff's on trade, this resulted in the 4 million citizens in the South paying 3/4ths of the costs of running the government, while the 20 million in the rest of the nation were only paying 1/4th the cost.

Additionally, about 40% of all revenue produced by trade in Southern Produced goods were being siphoned off by New York/New England, and the power barons of the Empire State wanted that money to keep flowing.

(The South created 3/4ths of the trade represented by the coins you see here.)

If the South became independent, the power barons would loose huge sums of money to their businesses, and worse, the South would eventually set up industries to compete with them. These Industries would have been financed with that additional 40% in revenue the South would have gained from becoming independent.

As New York is currently the Financial Center of the Nation and the world, had the South won independence, that center of power and money would have instead been Charleston South Carolina.

The Reason Abraham Lincoln went to war was to protect the financial interests of the Power Barons and the income stream feeding Washington D.C. and New York. (Same people we are fighting today.) He advocated the opinion that secession was illegal because he had to. What he had previously believed didn't enter into it.

[rockrr]

No one was obliging anyone to "live in servitude" except the southern slavers.

Nobody at the time thought anyone would be so insane as to kill 750,000 people just to maintain control.

Yea, who knew that ol jeff davis could be so insane?

[jmacusa]

“To learn who it is who rules over you, simply learn who it is you're not allowed to criticize''. To me that's minorities, illegal aliens, Muslims and homosexuals. So how is that like 1861?

[DiogenesLamp]

No one was obliging anyone to "live in servitude" except the southern slavers.

For four score and seven years, the flag of slavery was the US Flag. Apparently Washington DC only objected to slavery when their own slaves were getting away from them.

Yea, who knew that ol jeff davis could be so insane?

Jeff Davis didn't have control of the bloodshed. Abraham Lincoln had complete control of it.

[jmacusa]

“Jeff Davis didn’t have control of the bloodshed.’’ Jeez Lampster, every time you say something profoundly stupid I figure I’ve read it all. And then , BANG! , you go and say something really dumb.

[rockrr]

Complete distortions of the truth. But then we’ve come to expect that from you.

[DiogenesLamp]

“To learn who it is who rules over you, simply learn who it is you're not allowed to criticize''. To me that's minorities, illegal aliens, Muslims and homosexuals. So how is that like 1861?

Why are you not allowed to criticize these people? Because they are the Voters that keep a certain party and a certain set of Power Barons in power.

How is this like 1861? It's more like 1865, when the only people allowed to vote in the South were former slaves. They elected Republican legislatures, and reliably voted for Republicans up until about 1964.

Now how in the world would these minority voters represent an interest group for the power barons of that era? Well they were supporting the policies of New York and Washington D.C., now weren't they? (same as today)

That's how today is like 1865. What they all have in common is that they support the Elite Power Structure of New York and Washington D.C.

Or have you noticed yet?

[DiogenesLamp]

“Jeff Davis didn’t have control of the bloodshed.’’ Jeez Lampster, every time you say something profoundly stupid I figure I’ve read it all. And then , BANG! , you go and say something really dumb.

Are you suggesting that Jeff Davis could have ordered Brig. Gen. Irvin McDowell to go home?

The North Invaded the South. It wasn't the other way around. First casualties of Southern Guns were during that invasion. If Lincoln hadn't sent them, there would have been no bloodshed.

[DiogenesLamp]

Complete distortions of the truth. But then we’ve come to expect that from you.

Are you trying to say that for four score and seven years the US Flag was not the flag of slavery? Well what flag were they using since 1776?

The Union Accepted Slavery for four score and seven years. Actually longer, because it wasn't until 1865 that the last Union state gave up slavery.

So slavery lasted under the US Flag for four score and *NINE* years.

[rockrr]

The American flag was never the “flag of slavery”. What a stupid and insulting thing to say (we’ve come to expect that from you, too). Slavery existed under it but the institution was never a centerpiece or raison d’être like it was for the pretend state of the confeds.

[rockrr]

If Lincoln hadn't sent them, there would have been no bloodshed.

Another DegenerateLamp distortion of the truth.

[Bull Snipe]

So which Confederate fort did Lincoln fire on. When did Lincoln issue letters of Marque against Confederate flag ships. These are acts of war.

[trisham]

William Tecumseh Sherman

Nickname(s) “Cump”, “Uncle Billy” (by his troops)

Born February 8, 1820
Lancaster, Ohio

Died February 14, 1891 (aged 71)
New York, New York

Place of burial Calvary Cemetery
St. Louis, Missouri

Education: United States Military Academy

Allegiance United States

Service/branch United States Army
Union Army

Years of service 1840–1853, 1861–1884

Rank Union Army major general rank insignia.svg Major general (American Civil War)

Commands held XV Corps (1863)
Army of the Tennessee (1863–1864)
Military Division of the Mississippi (1864–1865)
Department of the Missouri (1866–1869)
Commanding General of the United States Army (March 8, 1869 – November 1, 1883)

Battles/wars
American Civil War

First Battle of Bull Run
Battle of Shiloh
Vicksburg Campaign
Jackson Expedition
Chattanooga Campaign
Meridian Campaign
Atlanta Campaign
Savannah Campaign (March to the Sea)
Carolinas Campaign

Awards Thanks of Congress – 1864 and 1865

Other work Bank manager, lawyer, college superintendent, streetcar executive

Wikipedia

[Bull Snipe]

Jeff Davis had complete control of it. He didn’t have to fire on Sumter, it was going to surrender the next day. He didn’t have to authorize piracy against US flagged ships. He decided to both. Both are acts of war. He chose war.

[Bull Snipe]

Thanks

[trisham]

My pleasure!

[DiogenesLamp]

The American flag was never the “flag of slavery”. What a stupid and insulting thing to say (we’ve come to expect that from you, too). Slavery existed under it but the institution was never a centerpiece or raison d’être like it was for the pretend state of the confeds.

Well, apart from that clause in the Constitution which guaranteed it.

(Article IV section 2.)

Pretty significant aspect of your government when it is protected as an institution by your Constitution.

Yes, I know it is very unfair of me to point out this fact. Embarrassing facts like that make it hard for you to defend your narrative.

[DiogenesLamp]

Another DegenerateLamp distortion of the truth.

That the first bloodshed by the South was at Bull Run/Manassas?

Nobody was killed by the South until that invasion.

[DiogenesLamp]

So which Confederate fort did Lincoln fire on.

Lincoln sent a 35,000 man invasion force. I think that qualifies.

When did Lincoln issue letters of Marque against Confederate flag ships. These are acts of war.

I think throwing up a blockade and sending an invasion force are a little more serious, and I also think they happened first.

The Confederates counted the first act of belligerence as the spiking and burning of the cannons at Ft. Moultrie. You may not know this, but there had never been troops garrisoned at Ft. Sumter until Major Anderson abandoned Ft. Moultrie and decided to hole up there.

[DiogenesLamp]

Jeff Davis had complete control of it. He didn’t have to fire on Sumter, it was going to surrender the next day.

You need to learn more about these events before you discuss them. Major Anderson was not going to surrender the next day. Lincoln had sent a flotilla of ships and men to resupply and reinforce the fort, and they were at that time standing 10 miles off the coast of Charleston.

The Confederates had been warned that these Navy Ships were sent to confront the Confederate forces then surrounding Sumter, and it was the arrival of another ship to join the existing flotilla that convinced General Beauregard that he had to take the fort before he found himself between the guns of the ships and the guns of the fort.

Additionally, at that very moment, Captain Porter was in route to fort Pickens in Florida to land men, weapons and supplies there, and said he would do it or be sunk.

So Lincoln effectively had two different plans to confront the Confederates, and he would have his war either by Sumter or by Pickens.

Even Major Anderson knew these ships with their men, guns and supplies would be regarded as an act of war.

I trust that this matter will be at once put in a correct light, as a movement made now, when the South has been erroneously informed that none such will be attempted, would produce most disastrous results throughout our country.

It is, of course, now too late for me to give any advice in reference to the proposed scheme of Captain Fox. I fear that its result cannot fail to be disastrous to all concerned. ...

I ought to have been informed that this expedition was to come. Colonel Lamon's remark convinced me that the idea, merely hinted at to me by Captain Fox, would not be carried out. We shall strive to do our duty, though I frankly say that my heart is not in the war which I see is to be thus commenced.

.

.

Complete letter here:

Jeff Davis knew these ships were coming. The Ships were ordered out to sea with Secret orders, but spies informed the confederates that they were coming. The Union through Stanton (I believe) had been reassuring the confederates that they weren't going to fight over Ft. Sumter, and then these ships are secretly launched and show up off the coast.

Having caught the Union and Lincoln already attempting to mislead them, (lying in fact) for all Davis knew those ships would open up on his forces with their cannons, to be joined by the men in Ft. Sumter firing at these same men with their cannons.

The Confederate forces would be caught between two groups of cannons with them in the middle. As a military situation, it was completely untenable. They would have been massacred.

Any general, upon seeing that he is about to get caught in such a trap, would immediately try to take out one side of it in the hopes that he could defeat it quickly enough so that he could then turn his forces to face the threat on the opposite side.

But Lincoln never intended to let fly with those ship cannons. He knew that by putting those people there at that time, that the confederates would have to attack, or face the possibility of being bombarded from both ships and Forts.

Lincoln was a clever man.