Posted on 03/09/2016 3:58:42 AM PST by Dallas59
Herd immunity only works if a population has high vaccination rates. With that most kids won't come into contact with the virus. This protects not just kids never vaccinated but also kids whose vaccination didn't take. Once vaccination rates lower, enough of a population of vulnerable individuals will exist for a virus to create an epidemic.
As far as government forcing the issue, I believe that children are not property. If a parent is keeping the child isolated from the general population, no vaccines is fine. Once that kid goes to public school, I would require vaccinations. Institutional settings = germ stew. Cheers back at ya.
First, I’m forced to pay for government “schools”. Then, I’m forced to send my children to one of them 5 days a week if I don’t have the means to pay for private education (which is also under government control) or home school. And, to top it off, since I’m sending my children to the “schools”, I’m then forced to inject my children with a product that might kill him.
Am I understanding your opinion correctly? And you consider yourself pro-freedom?
Before the vaccine, the chicken pox virus was always around and people would come in contact with it many times in their lives. Each contact essentially boosts the immunity of those who already had chicken pox. Since the virus isn’t around very much anymore, people don’t get chicken pox and they don’t got immunity boosters very often. And so, when they are exposed more people get shingles. Of course, if any of this was actually debated decades ago, then Americans would not have chosen to vaccinate against chicken pox. But Americans are obedient and did what they were told.
The chicken pox vaccination is a scam. It is just a way to separate fools from their money. That’s all.
I have young children and none of them have had any vaccines.
Without knowing it, your unvaccinated children are (so far) getting a free ride on the herd immunity train paid for by those who are vaccinated. But if enough parents like you don’t vaccinate, the herd immunity train derails putting not just your children, but many others at risk.
For example, kids don’t get chicken pox anymore due to the vaccine. But, by the time they are adults, the vax wears off and they get shingles...which is a big problem. I would much rather my kids get chicken pox like I did.
Before the vaccine, the chicken pox virus was always around and people would come in contact with it many times in their lives. Each contact essentially boosts the immunity of those who already had chicken pox. Since the virus isn’t around very much anymore, people don’t get chicken pox and they don’t got immunity boosters very often. And so, when they are exposed more people get shingles.
You are incorrect on many points.
First of all, mere contact does nothing to boost immunity. In other words, if you have a particular strain of the flu virus for instance (or measles or chickenpox, etc.) and I casually walk by you and even come into contact with you but I do not catch that virus from you, since I never contracted that virus, I will not magically have later immunity from that of virus later on just because I was in contact with you. You seem to be confusing contact with contraction.
The chicken pox vaccine - a single dose may not confer lifelong immunity so that is why a booster is recommended. It is not known whether that second dose wears off over time – there is conflicting evidence to that both ways. But it is known that it is extremely rare for anyone properly vaccinated for chicken pox to contract it later.
People can only come down with shingles however if they actually had chicken pox when younger. If they were not vaccinated against chicken pox, they are at risk of contracting chicken pox but not shingles. You simply don’t contract shingles without previously having had chicken pox.
People who were properly vaccinated for chicken pox are very, highly unlikely in fact to develop shingles later in life. That is because the chicken pox vaccine is a very weakened or attenuated, virus. The attenuated virus in the vaccine is enough to trigger an immune response but not strong enough to cause the illness (or at the very most a very mild version of it). Shingles is caused by a reactivation of the varicella virus that lies dormant in the nerve cells of persons who once had full blown chicken pox.
Shingles is not transmittable from person to person however a person with an active shingles outbreak can transmit the varicella zoster virus and hence infect them with chicken pox, to someone who has never had or been vaccinated for chicken pox although that typically requires direct contact with a zoster rash.
Chicken pox while not a serious illness for most, it can cause dangerous complications in infants and older persons or persons with immune-system problems such as cancer patients. Shingles can be an extremely painful if not debilitating illness in older people.
Can the Chickenpox Vaccine Cause Shingles Later in Life?
A careful review of the evidence would lead any reasonable parent to skip the vaccines and instead focus on giving their children good food, exercise outside, love, homeopathic remedies, etc.
My wife is in the health care field
If your wife is in the “healthcare field” and believes in the nonsense of homeopathy and homeopathic remedies, she’s either a quack or in the wrong profession. Sorry but that’s the truth.
I know this is a comedy skit but it pretty much sums up the scam that is homeopathy.
That Mitchell and Webb Look: Homeopathic A&E
The one part I agree with is giving too many vaccines at once.
I understand why some people think this but it is not supported by scientific evidence. Consider that before vaccinations (and even still today), very young children (infants) were and are exposed to many germs and diseases. Yes, childhood mortality was high before modern medicine and vaccinations for preventable diseases, but there is no scientific evidence that the current vaccination schedule is too much too soon or too many at one time. This article does a good job of explaining it.
Just the Vax, Please: Busting the "Too Many, Too Soon" Myth
And
Do Children Get Too Many Immunizations? The Answer is No
I used to live on a farm settled by a pre-revolutionary war family. The family cemetary was still there. It was filled with children’s graves. Every day I passed it I was glad I didn’t live back then.
I find old cemeteries interesting. I find them both fascinating from a historical perspective and very sad from a personal one, and yet an example of how far we have come – sad to see how many children who died in infancy or in young childhood from what are today preventable diseases or infections and the deaths of the young women, the wives still of child baring years too, sometimes buried next to the child they died giving birth to.
FWIW, my late father who was born in Norway in 1921 had no knowledge until he was a much older adult that he had an older sister named Margaret who had died at the age of one and a half years old in late 1919. Likewise, after my mother died (who was born in 1923) when we arranged her burial in the family plot, we learned that there was already a burial in that plot, the small casket of a very young child in what was supposed to be her grave plot. From what we learned from the cemetery records, the child was also named Margaret, was just under two years old at the time of her death and died in late 1918 but that was the extent, aside from a burial receipt signed by my great grandmother, of the records the cemetery had.
When my niece and my uncle and I researched our family genealogy and history, we found that my father’s older sister, named Margaret, died suddenly after a “brief illness”. Researching newspaper accounts from my dad’s birthplace in Norway (my uncle being able to read Norwegian and with help from some of our Norwegian relatives) this coincided with a deadly outbreak of the “Spanish Flu” in his hometown in Norway. My grandmother must have been so distraught and grieved so and in addition to the fact that two weeks before my father was born, her husband died suddenly, that she never spoke of either her first born child’s death nor that of her first husband. My dad grew up believing that his step father was his birth father and knew nothing of having had an older sister who had died until much later in life. But when his mother, my grandmother died, we found a few infant pictures of his sister Margaret that she had long kept hidden away. My father treasured them and added Margaret’s pictures to among all the other family pictures he displayed in his home. For many years he was angry at his mother and step father for hiding the truth, but as he got older he came to understand and forgave them.
As to the child also ironically named Margret who was buried in my mother’s family cemetery plot died in 1918 and also coinciding with an outbreak of the “Spanish Flu” in central PA; we know nothing about her. My mother never said anything about having an older sister and no one else in the family, neither my aunt nor any of my mother’s cousins ever mentioned any child by that name. There are no pictures or any references to her at all; not in the family Bible nor in any of the many family papers that include baptismal and death records that I now have in my possession. Her identity is a complete mystery to us. But she must have been important enough to the family to have been buried in the family cemetery plot.
When my mother was buried, after consulting with the cemetery as to our options, we had Margret’s coffin temporary exhumed but not otherwise disturbed and then laid on top of my mother’s and re-buried along with my mother. When we had the grave maker installed, it had both names on it. And knowing how much my mother loved children, we all, including my father, thought that would have very much pleased her.
FWIW, my brother and I tried to research the birth and death records from that time period, trying to find out who Margaret was in our family, but there was a fire at the courthouse in Harrisburg, PA IIRC in the 1930’s and many, many records were destroyed and we found nothing, and nothing my niece and I researched on Ancestry.com, the census records, etc., from that time, turned up anything.
While we can’t be sure, we think that perhaps this Margaret, a two-year old child who died during the time of the Spanish Flu outbreak that killed so many that fall, might not have been a relative at but perhaps the child of a family friend who could not otherwise afford a burial for their child or perhaps she was the illegitimate child of either my grandmother’s brother in law or even that of my grandfather – both had a rather shady pasts and were known to be heavy drinkers and notorious gamblers and womanizers (my mother’s mother, my grandmother, while as a devout Catholic, and who would never file for a divorce, she did move in with her sister when my mother was very young, my mother only having limited contact with her father until he died, supposedly of a heart attack, when she was only 14 years old).
But while not proven, I find it interesting that it was likely that both Margarets died from the Spanish Flu.
I agree with you first point about herd immunity having benefited my family. But, there are downsides to this as well. The chicken pox vaccine is a scam. And, because there are so many suckers out there, herd immunity has kicked in, and my children are not likely to get chicken pox naturally. Herd immunity also increases the risk that I will get shingles because there isn’t natural chicken pox floating around any more. Of course, the CDC (a.k.a., the drug companies) says I should just get the shingles vaccine. Well, I don’t want the shingles vaccine. I don’t want to take a drug that is unnecessary for me and does have potential deadly side effects.
My wife a not a quack, but I’m guessing you are a liberal-NeoCon/Trotskyite. You write about evidence, but all you need to do is read the vaccine literature. The drug companies admit, in writing, that their product might kill you. I can’t understand how otherwise intelligent people overlook this fact. Also, the “safety” research is bogus...
So you don’t like alternative medicine. Well, how is it that my children have NEVER used an antibiotic (except for scraps on knees, etc.)? It is because when they are sick, we do not reach for a drug first, we try natural methods. Do you know that children do not need or benefit from fever suppressants. There is no science, at all, that indicates suppressing a fever is healthy. It’s not just vaccines, but Americans are trying to buy health from snake oil salesmen (and the CDC gives them their stamp of approval).
I don’t claim that all vaccines are bad...I just think parents should choose which ones to give their kids, the government should not pick sides, and the research should be scientific.
Death comes to us all...we can’t change that, but we can change how we live. For my family, I prefer freedom over slavery.
If the baby had a heart monitor. Somebody already thought there was a risk of the baby’s heart stopping.
So you admit that you and your children personally benefit by others getting vaccinated? You admit that your children are getting a free ride from those who are vaccinated? Interesting.
My wife a not a quack, but I’m guessing you are a liberal-NeoCon/Trotskyite.
Nice deflection there but if your wife advocates for homeopathic cures, yes, she is a quack. Homeopathy is a scam and it is totally worthless.
Fad Friday: Debunking homeopathy
You won't believe what happens when Science Babe swallows 50 homeopathic sleeping pills.
Do you know that children do not need or benefit from fever suppressants. There is no science, at all, that indicates suppressing a fever is healthy.
I will agree with you to some extent on this. Children often develop fevers and not all childhood fevers are a reason for concern. However, a very high and persistent fever lasting for four days or more, one that does not go down with fever suppressants and along with confusion, severer listlessness, the inability to drink or keep down fluids or foods, could be a sign of a very serious condition and cause for concern and a reason to consult a “real” doctor - something that the parents in the article didn’t do until it was too late:
We worry most about fevers in very young children – especially infants less than 3 months old – because their immune systems are still developing. This leaves them at risk for severe infections. In preschool age children and beyond, we pediatricians generally don’t worry much about fevers unless they last for four days or more, and cause symptoms such as significant listless/irritability, a bad sore throat, worsening coughing or pain with urination.
In infants less than 2 months of age, a fever is any temperature over 100.4º F. It’s also a concern if your newborn’s temperature is less than 96 F. For an abnormal temperature in your newborn, call your doctor or go to the urgent care clinic or emergency room — your newborn needs to be seen right away.
In babies and children older than 3 months, a fever is a temperature greater than 101.5º F. Call your doctor if your child’s temperature reaches 102.2º F or higher.
Most fevers go away in a couple of days. Call your doctor if the fever lasts four days or more. Call the doctor right away if your feverish child has vomiting or diarrhea, earache, severe abdominal pain, headache, stiff neck, sore throat, trouble breathing, pain when urinating, swollen joints, other localized pain and a purplish/dark rash that does not fade when you press on it. Also call the doctor if your child is listless or refuses to drink fluids.
Should I give my child medicine to lower her fever?
Fever-reducing medicines are not needed for low-grade fevers (99º to 101º F) unless your child seems uncomfortable or is not drinking well. Once children’s fevers rise above 101.5º F, they generally feel miserable, and fever-reducing medicines will help them feel better. Children may be more likely to drink fluids properly after they have had fever-reducing medicines.
When to Worry About a Fever Interestingly in the case that is the subject of this thread, the child was suffering from meningitis. One of the signs of meningitis is a persistent high fever along with other symptoms that should have been cause for alarm, in addition to a persistent high fever.
http://www.webmd.com/children/vaccines/meningitis-symptoms-warning-signs
This child suffered from, at least for two weeks or more of what was likely obvious symptoms of something well beyond a common cold or flu. But this child’s parents, instead of taking him to a doctor, decided to treat him with olive leaf extract, whey protein, water with maple syrup, and juice with frozen berries and then when his condition got much worse, with apple cider vinegar, horseradish root, hot peppers, onion, garlic, and ginger root, until he finally stopped breathing. OK. When your kid stops breathing after having being sick for several weeks and he’s not responding to the “natural” remedies, call 9-11 and have him airlifted to a hospital and the real doctors and medications and hope for the best.
Herd immunity also increases the risk that I will get shingles because there isn’t natural chicken pox floating around any more.
No you are wrong. You can’t get shingles unless you’ve previously had chicken pox. If you’ve never had chicken pox, you will not ever develop shingles later in life.
...O'Malley? ;-)
Well, not since he's gone all "Dad body"...
The chicken pox vaccine is a live virus vaccine.
Kid we know had shingles in elementary school. Previously had the chicken pox vaccine but not chicken pox.
It could be a wine diagram!
Saw some guy promoting that years ago. Him and his buddies kicked me off their site because I wasn’t respectful enough of Bammy.
Ha. Good riddance.
Got me twice, just today.
I had chicken pox but since I’m not exposed to the virus as an adult, my immunity is wearing off. For people like me, my risk of shingles is increasing. That is why there is an increase in shingles going on...at least that is one of the theories.
The couple in this article made some big mistakes, I can’t explain why they did what they did...assuming the reporting is correct. It is very sad.
The chicken pox vaccine is a scam. So is Hep-B for infants. The whole system that is enforced by government agents is corrupt and bad for Americans. You can’t be pro-freedom and support the CDC vaccination regime.
The viral form is most common, and in a toddler, would appear to be a 24-48 hour mild flu like, nonspecific illness.
In an adult, it will put you in the ICU for a week.
Antibiotics do nothing to treat viral meningitis.Child or adult.
Managing the almost unimaginable pain, and monitoring for secondary complications is the extent of the palliative care, and is about all that can be done medically.It's a 100% crap shoot on how much damage the condition will wreak on any given patient.
Bacterial meningitis, the more rare but deadly version, if accurately diagnosed within 24-48 hours of onset, can be treated with massive antibiotics, and requires intensive care in hospital, under isolated, ICU supervision.
There is little chance of surviving and recovering completely, without some measurable degree of lingering weakness/disability.
Ranging from negligible to large loss of hearing, sight,motor function, memory etc.
One won't be unscathed.
I wish I didn't know this, since I learned all these details through personal experience.
I am thankful I “only” had the viral version.
There is no acquired immunity, having once had the viral version.
I tend to freak out when I get a headache now....
“I like the idea of herd immunity, but I’m not sure how well it works. For example, kids don’t get chicken pox anymore due to the vaccine. But, by the time they are adults, the vax wears off and they get shingles...which is a big problem.”
You can’t get shingles unless you’ve ALREADY HAD chicken pox as a child, except in rare cases where you’ve NOT had chicken pox and come in contact with the liquid from shingles blisters of someone else.
I know an adult with shingles. It's a lving hell for them.
Don't know if it's chix pox related, though.
Anything beyond that, your mileage may vary.
So, don't fall in love with the modern notion of "doctors" - nor their "advice".
My daughter had bacterial meningitis when she was 6 months old. Doctors told us to prepare for the worst, or brain damage if she lived. She survived thanks to antibiotics. Minor, almost undetectable hearing damage was the only lasting effect. My 'little' girl is now in her late 40s.
I pray she is never subjected to any form of meningitis again.
Did the doctors tell you/her whether or not she has a a natural immunity now?
Because there is no future immunity for the viral versions, according to my doctors.The vaccines only work on the bacterial versions.
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