Posted on 02/20/2016 5:33:52 AM PST by Citizen Zed
The Media, citing Snopes, has been saying this morning that this Pershing story is bunk. Whether it is or not is moot. In America these days separating fact from fiction is a near impossible task.
There were other stories about stratagems employed by Pershing that probably WERE true. The one story about how he used the game of Chess to rope in a local warlord into exchanging visits, then using the visit to the warloard’s village to stage a ‘firepower demonstration’.
Point is that even if Pershing didn’t do it, he likely promoted the story to gain that very psychological edge. Even as a lowly captain, Pershing was demonstrating his ability to play at the strategic level.
Better yet, shoot a few terrorists and feed them to the pigs...and let that story get out.
Sealing the borders and getting rid of muzzie terrorists is much of what will get this guy elected.
I wonder how the Muslim world would have taken the news that the remains of the 9-11 bombers were buried in an ex-pigsty?
Check out The Real Glory (1939) at 1:18. Whoever portrayed the Muslim did a great job.
Just when you think Trump has said so many insane things that you could not possibly vote for him... he totally redeems himself.
” ... But the new M1911 pistol and Springfield Rifle’s M1903 Mauser clone (and its clumsy predecessor the Krag) were probably more responsible for success in that long and vicious guerilla war.”
katana hasn’t described the timeline accurately.
The fight between US forces and the juramentados of Mindanao was long (ca 1900-1913) and vicious. Field reports on weapon effectiveness indicated the standard sidearm of the day - “Colt’s New Army & Navy” revolver firing 38 Long Colt ammunition (150gr lead bullet at 750 ft/sec) - fared poorly at stopping Moro opponents, prompting extensive tests by US Ordnance Corps (Thompson/LaGarde tests), which led to a War Dept policy requiring any future handgun to have a bullet diameter of 0.45 inch or greater.
What’s rarely mentioned in popular accounts, is that the issue rifle then in use - M1898 Krag - did not stop Moros all that effectively either. The only small arm providing reliable results turned out to be the shotgun at close range.
The 30-40 Krag cartridge fired a 220gr round-nose bullet to some 2000 ft/sec - more powerful than the 30-30. It was judged unsatisfactory because it lacked any capability to be rapidly reloaded; Ordnance tried to develop a charger (stripper clip) but did not succeed. Effectiveness wasn’t the issue; indeed, the commonest sporting load fires a 180gr soft point bullet at 2400 ft/sec and has taken game large and small for over a century.
The US Magazine Rifle, Model of 1903 (03 Springfield) fired the same 220gr round nose bullet at 2300 ft/sec, from the 30-03 cartridge. Owing much to Imperial Germany’s Gewehr Modell 1898 (Mauser 98), the rifle was stronger than the Krag, but offered no better accuracy. Rapid reloading was enhanced by chargers (stripper clips), then a patented Mauser innovation.
The 30-03’s higher velocity was supposed to offer better long range performance but in reality it proved little better than the 30-40. The 30-06 cartridge (150gr pointed bullet, 2700 ft/sec) was adopted in 1906 in response to German developments of 1905; the new bullet shape did do better at long ranges. Nearly all 03 Springfields
Neither 30-40 nor 30-03 were terribly effective at short ranges (often found in Philippine jungles), as the 220gr bullets, jacketed with cupronickel, tended to punch through a living human target, doing insufficient injury, only to travel far downrange.
US Ordnance spent some ten years working with numerous inventors, before adopting a self-loading pistol in March 1911. Seeking better handgun effectiveness, the War Dept adopted a version of Colt’s New Service in 1909, firing an updated version of the 45 Long Colt round, first fielded in 1873. But the new handgun played only a minor part in the Philippine Insurgency.
Many features of the M1911 pistol were added to appease the horse cavalry: bullet weight was increased from John Browning’s initial design of 1905 (200gr, 900 ft/sec) and velocity decreased; it was said to be better if the trooper was forced to shoot his own mount. Any improvement in effectiveness against Moros was incidental.
The revolvers and rifles that became obsolete in the early 20th century did not soon depart from military inventory; the Krag was issued to the National Guard, and ammunition was still being loaded for government use in the early 1930s. Revolvers firing 38 Colt went to riverine gunboats the US Navy sent to China; ammunition was still being acquired in the 1920s. 6mm Lee Navy cartridges were being acquired also; information on military issue and use in action of Winchester’s Navy M1985 straight-pull rifle is scant. The ammunition could have been obtained for the M1895 machine gun designed by John Browning and made by Colt (”Potatoe Digger”)
Thanks. That’s far more detail than I’ve seen anywhere before. I based my comments on the “legend” of the M1911 in the Philippines and its stopping power against drugged Moro warriors. And I’d presumed the Krag and 1903 Springfield in the hands of determined troops (in terms of PC the Moro rebellion was a dirty war and more resembled the Indian Wars than any modern conflict) made more difference than Gen. Pershing’s psy ops. Never resent being corrected with more detailed and better information.
Too late. Obama has already fired or retired him. You'll have to start over.
“Just when I thought you couldn’t possibly be any dumber, you go and do something like this... and totally redeem yourself!”
Lol! One of the great movie lines of all time!
Lighten up Frances, I wouldn’t actually vote for a liberal like Trump, I was just making a reference to the “Dumb and Dumber” movie line.
“Thanks. That’s far more detail than I’ve seen anywhere before. I based my comments on the “legend” of the M1911 in the Philippines and its stopping power against drugged Moro warriors. ...”
Numerous thanks to katana for such a courteous reply.
I spent more than half my active-duty career of 24-1/2 years conducting operational testing and performing scientific analyses. Collecting data on which system worked and which did not is a task rather more complex and difficult than the average citizen might guess (same is true for the average member of the armed forces, strangely): “common sense” might be intensely desired and believed in, but is of no use. “We won the war, therefore our systems were better” may indeed be true, but leaves us with nothing to catch hold of, in evaluating the success or failure of an individual system.
As a researcher, I’ve been trying for over 30 years to gain access to reports on small arms effectiveness. Little of it is classified, but the responsible agencies still won’t grant permission. Correlating the effectiveness of modern weapons to those in use over 100 years ago poses additional problems: many of the clinical techniques and forensic methodolgies had yet to be invented when the United States was dealing with the Philippine Insurgency. And our knowledge of trauma, anatomy, and medicine has changed a lot also.
Modern analyses can only be approximate, but I deem it hard to overstate the importance of the 45 Colt cartridge as originally loaded (which was not the load used for most of its active duty life, from the mid 1870s until the mid 1890s).
As the Insurgency dragged on, numbers of M1873 Single Action revolvers were removed from storage, degreased, and issued to troops. They were said to be the only handgun capable of downing drug-fueled juramentadoes.
The data-crunching imp within leads me to hypothesize that hand-to-hand engagements may have gone down like this: US foot patrol is attacked. 2Lt empties his Colt M1895 DA revolver into the Moro coming at him; the Moro keeps on coming, and hacks him to death with his barong (or whatever those bloody great machete knives are called). Platoon Sgt draws his M1873 Single Action and fires one or two rounds, at point blank range; nearing death from blood loss after absorbing six 38 Colt slugs, the Moro drops the blade and collapses.
Thus the 45 caliber legend was enthroned. And in some latter-day loadings (some of which rival 44 Magnum ballistics - use in NEW guns only!), it still holds its own against younger challengers.
But we will never know for certain; data collection in the midst of a close-combat engagement is a very iffy thing.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.