Posted on 08/19/2015 5:02:44 AM PDT by don-o
“I do believe that American biker clubs are in general honorable, valuable and uniquely patriotic, and poised in many ways to BE those front lines, though, should the need arise, even the Hells Angels and Bandidos. Maybe even especially them.”
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
Hells Angels and Bandidos HONORABLE!
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
If the SHTF, they will be the first ones down.
After that reappraisal of my own remarks also, and then too, before you got around to saying in #56
it had come to me that one could say that at least some of the bikers, are now in a sense on the front lines for being subjected to what is now unfolding after the initial reaction of LE, and thus are now more acutely where the front lines are, in that sense of how Statist doctrines, and patterns of assertion of those are presently proceeding. It's not all about "fighting crime" when it comes to doing everything possible in order to pin guilt due to whomever it is rightfully due, also onto those for whom it apparently, is quite likely not due.
So in that, you were correct to an extent, although in first response I said "huh?".
For being on the receiving end of incoming fire (of accusations made against themselves) coming from government agents, who cannot automatically be trusted to get everything right, even if they KNOW what is right (and yet further, even the "if they know" is debatable, depending upon in what circumstances do they know what, and will admit to knowing it!) that seems to me to be putting those individuals on the front lines between where freedom of association, and the governmental effort to impugn guilt (in legally binding manner) meet. Yet due to too loose association to make the charges of conspiracy stick for each and every "biker" who was arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit crime, that leaves LE in the wrong, as for that consideration. Freedom of association is a Constitutional right.It does not equal guilt of some individuals whom associate with one another, to then be rightfully due to be applied to all, yet that is the very thing that the arrest warrants went so far as to encompass, and was the factor that incensed the Dallas lawyers who took up the case for one Cossack club member. One of the lawyers of that firm had previously been a prosecutor for a County in Texas. He was really steamed at how McLennan County jimmied-up the blanket John Doe arrest warrants, and for what those same were saying. But I repeat what others have already said better, doing so not because YOU don't get it, but because some others seem not to.
It was not until after I had sent reply #55 to you that I went back and re-read some of the previous conversation you had been having, and so by way of neglect on my own part, had missed an important sense of what you had been driving at.
For that, I apologize.
I think I see what you are saying, and agree that among biker club memberships, there those who would likely be among the first to reply in emergency defense of their own nation, this nation in which we live, provided the situation called for it.
More than a few of those individuals have previous military service history. One of the Bandidos who was shot was former military (Vietnam)---and formerly LEO too, wasn't he?
The laughing their hole off 360% HOLE on this thread said what?
Speaking of bikers, said
Really. They really want to go there?
I suppose the police would be the ones shooting them ---FIRST --- when or if the SHTF??? (where have I heard of that idea before?)
!!Surprise Surprise Surprise Sergeant Carter!!
The laughing their hole off 360% HOLE on this thread said what?
Speaking of bikers, said They will be the first to "go down" Really. They really want to go there?
I suppose the police would be the ones shooting them ---FIRST --- when or if the SHTF??? (where have I heard of that idea before?) !!Surprise Surprise Surprise Sergeant Carter!!
Though perhaps will touch on the general subject (I think?) shortly in another post.
Bona fide criminal activity, such as supporting cartels which are part of drug and human traffic on the borders of our Republic and causing great harm to our own citizens, should be abhorred by all of us.
The erosion of rights starts with association and proceeds to dehumanization. Even the lowest criminal scum have the same Constitutional rights as the most upstanding citizen. Wearing a three-piece patch doesn't lessen your standing under the law. The burden of proof is still the same.
Freedom of speech is supposed to be offensive; it is not proof of conspiracy. I would love to have the freedom to throw everyone who wears a Che tee shirt in a Cuban jail for a few weeks, but I can't. I would just as soon send the idiots who say one positive word about Mao to hell, but it isn't up to me. Thank God!
Protecting the lowest of our society is the only way that anyone can be protected. The state holds to no ideal. Today it's the biker, tomorrow it's the baker, the rancher, then the pastor. If history proves one principle, it is that people must be ever wary of building gallows.
I guess my though with regard to the LEO "gang" -- which I think is more accurately described as "militarized" -- is that it fosters suspicion, doubt, and fear among law-abiding people of those who can and should be civil servant protectors who help resolve problems.
Good cops -- God knows in my wild a wanton yute I came across enough of such police and law men who resolved problems well, wisely, and peacefully. They see regular folks in trouble or causing trouble, the way people will, and deal with it as sensibly as they can, and law-abiding people respect their civil servants.
But I've also seen disturbing times when power-mad cops have done horrific things to innocent people, and gotten away with it scott free. Their authority is still in force over me and mine, and thee and thine. I hate that it is so, and I know that it is so.
There are so many cops whose first priority is to establish their total authority by show of force, gunpoint, or near-gunpoint; they see only hostiles. When those kinds of cops increase the scale of their authoritarian tyranny beyond a certain point with American biker clubs, the awful results are predictable. History and human nature repeat themselves.
Belonging to a club is an American right, and short of impersonating an officer, wearing insignia of a club is an American right. Wearing insignia of a general brotherhood, lifestyle, philosophy, or even criminal subculture, is also legal, and you'd think real law men would love the fact that the actual criminals are so happy to announce themselves to any law man smart enough to figure out their insignia.
Say a guy has a flea problem because his dog has fleas. There are two ways he can get rid of the problem. One way is to get rid of the fleas and accept that occasional bouts with fleas are part of having a dog. The other way is to get rid of the dog. Either way, you get rid of the fleas.
Arrests at Waco look about as sensible as trying to solve the flea problem by getting rid of the dog.
Amen, Bro. Freeper! I see Che t-shirts and my hair just about goes on fire!!
Well said, worth another read. Line from Tombstone comes to mind, when Fred White says, "It's getting pretty spooky around here." I don't like what this thing at Waco looks like, but I've decided to press on with courage and vigor! {^)
Also, no need for apology at all! God bless and keep you and yours!
“even the Hells Angels and Bandidos. Maybe even especially them.”
1. You abhor criminal gangs such as the Bandidos and by the way who wouldn’t?
2. Yet you do not want the criminal enterprise put out of business. Anti-gang units, cops, prosecutors, even IF in the future, following existing statutes within your understanding of the reach of those laws, apparently should not target criminal gangs nor try to put them out of business using all legal means available. You do not even want them put out of business by agreement of innocent bikers, to VOLUNTARILY cease their association with and support of the criminal enterprise! That is MUCH to be preferred than law enforcement. But OH it is LE’s job to catch the criminals! Despite innocent bikers providing cushy layers of protection around them . . . Innocent bikers tell LE, YOU catch the true bad guys, not our job as free citizens to stop our “free association”! Is that part of the mythos of the biker world? Free, innocent bikers tell LE, YOU catch the bad guys, not MY job! and then laugh up their sleeves while the bad guys taunt the cops, “Run, run just as fast as you can, you can’t catch me, I’m the gingerbread man.” Surrounded by layers of subordinate and associate gingerbread people. ok corny analogy . . .
3. My military mind has failed to see a strategic or operational SHTF scenario where the Bandidos are key elements. Is it because they already control territory and control the civilian population within their claimed territories, and limit free association of innocent bikers by so doing?
4. So the front line now, is protecting free association. And the Bandidos are now apparently the poster boys protecting this line from further erosion. Even though they limit free association of innocent bikers. Even though free association is further advanced by voluntarily losing the support patch. Bikers want free association, OK we all do. SO they decide, I’ll pay homage to the Bandidos??
5. In the mean time, there are victims of the criminal activities of the Bandidos. Including the territorial integrity of the border States. Despite this, they are viewed as Patriots?
6. The names and faces of their victims are invisible. The Bandidos are playing a shell game, making sure you don’t see their victims, so you only see they themselves as victims.
7. The shell game includes the assertion or assumption, if the criminal biker gangs are not protected by the continued “free association” of innocent bikers with these known criminals, protecting them from even legitimate exercise of law, the bakers and candlestick makers are next. To the contrary. When citizens protect criminals and criminal activity (as we traditionally understand crime) the only option left is the enforcement of the law. Those who support the Bandidos are calling out to LE. Haven’t you said as much?
8. Patriots and citizens do have a MORAL obligation to cease association with criminals. Those who do not, increase the “battle-space” for LE involvement, invite them into it, and then call it tyranny when they answer the call as they are duty-bound to do.
The above pertains to future decisions people take.
Waco should not have happened, and should never happen again. The Bandidos should just fade away as they should have decades ago, because free moral citizens decide to not put up with any association with them. How about, keep the cops out of it?! Then they can focus on the true bad guys, not have to sift the wheat from the chaff.
Respectfully, etc.
“Belonging to a club is an American right, “
Belonging to a gang is criminal.
“The Bandidos should just fade away as they should have decades ago, because free moral citizens decide to not put up with any association with them. “
Yet we see support for them even on FR! Would this be tolerated if they were supporting the Bloods or Crips?
Suit against TP’s says bikers started fight.
“In defiance of repeated law enforcement warnings, Twin Peaks invited rival biker gangs to its Waco restaurant on May 17, 2015,” the lawsuit says. “Predictably, these rival gangs — fueled by Twin Peaks alcohol — began fighting.”
Thanks for the link.
Not affiliated with a biker group, there for lunch. Innocent victims.
They should remain nameless and faceless, so the only victims we see are the bikers who were arrested. /sarcasm
They should file another suit naming the woman who made the reservation for 300 bikers. She must have had some basis for that number of reservations. Didn’t I read on one of these threads that she made a phone call for Bandido reinforcements?
” She must have had some basis for that number of reservations. Didn’t I read on one of these threads that she made a phone call for Bandido reinforcements?”
Good catch. This was a regional meeting. I have seen videos of regional meetings. NO WAY would there be need for 300 reservations unless there was a call for a show of force by the Bandidos in the Cossacks home town.
“Would this be tolerated if they were supporting the Bloods or Crips?”
The nagging thought that occurred to me after reading many posts yesterday, to which I responded this morning, is that there seems that nothing LE could legally do would be acceptable. Do I have to add that I don’t want LE to do anything illegal? Yes, but I will still be considered a tyrant for raising the question. Have you heard? I am now more dangerous to freedom in the United States than, say, the Bandidos.
Cops put their lives at risk going undercover in drug gangs such as the Bloods and Crips, and that is their job. Would any FReeper disagree with that?
Recall the earlier, visceral comments about the possibility of undercover at Waco. How dare LE have undercover in the Cossacks or Bandidos, because (as the reasoning seems to go) the fact that there was LE present, means that it was a cop set-up, and the undercover guy provoked the incident (and for good measure, the cops shot everyone.)
It no longer seems the case that the outrage is only about cop and DA over-reaction at Waco for some of them. That is the main concern of many who post threads and comment on them; but for some, it goes deeper, and it is clear that it is really not about butchers and bakers and candle-stick makers, it really is about the Bandidos and other criminal biker gangs. They are, somehow have to be, above the law . . . beyond its reach. Bikers cannot even voluntarily disassociate, because that would mean the criminal bikers would not have the free association of innocent people to protect and support them.
Of course, it is the cops’ job to find the true bad guys and catch them! wink, wink. Such as perhaps, have undercover cops providing them intel?? You see how that goes over.
For the record: the cops shot some of the bikers at Waco.
It is amazing that these threads keep drifting back to ‘all cops are evil’ and ‘biker gangs are honorable’!
Even Cboldt, who before seemed somewhat a reasonable person has now gone to praising those that have the above opinion.
They still running the GJ with a Waco cop as the foreman?
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Yes. I don’t have a link but read a news article that said there were now TWO Waco grand juries. One GJ would investigate the bikers, etc. and the other GJ would investigate the involved law enforcement. That same article said that the Waco cop would NOT be on the jury hearing the bikers. My reaction to that was “WTF?”...in he’s on a GJ but not on the “biker” one, does that mean that he’s on the GJ hearing the case on law enforcement? Sure doesn’t sound like he would be IMPARTIAL on that one.
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