Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article


1 posted on 08/08/2013 6:40:45 AM PDT by cutty
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies ]


To: cutty
Meanwhile, the disappearance of Allied men and materiel from the battlefield completely mystified the Germans.

The gist of this article seems to be that the Allies should have chosen to attack the Nazis in the place that the enemy was most expecting and had prepared for.

Breitbart is a good site for current events, but it isn't quite up to snuff on its military history.

2 posted on 08/08/2013 6:48:31 AM PDT by wideawake
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

The entire effort in the Med, that whole soft underbelly thing, was done to benefit the British in maintaining it’s empire in the post war era.
The American idea was to end the war rapidly as possible. The British insisted on sideshows designed to help them maintain their position in the postwar era.

Thank god we didn’t do it the British way.


3 posted on 08/08/2013 6:48:35 AM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

I think France would have gone communist if we hadn’t put De Gaulle in power there. And I’m not sure we could have done it without the D-Day invasion.


4 posted on 08/08/2013 6:49:54 AM PDT by SeeSharp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

While capturing Italy first would have given the Allies an advantage in the air, there is no way they could have moved the necessary number of tanks across the Alps to complete the ground war.


5 posted on 08/08/2013 6:51:03 AM PDT by kidd
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

“Gen. Mark Clark, commander of U.S. forces in Italy, explains how gutting his forces in Italy in the months before D-Day stalled Allied progress against German forces.”

Myopia. Its actually the other way around. Italy sucked up supplies, landing craft, aircraft, soldiers, etc. Ike thought without the Mediterranean theater looking so large, the landings in France and a straight drive into Germany could have happened as much as a year earlier.

The British soldiers were first class. But their leaders prolonged the war. Market Garden is another example. To placate Monty, that failed Holland attempt at an end run stripped Patton’s army and stopped them for months.

The war in Europe could have ended even as much as a year earlier were it not for the British political leadership.


10 posted on 08/08/2013 6:56:55 AM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

As George Marshall would state in 1957 to his official biographer Forrest Pogue: “Hopkins’s job with the president was to represent the Russian interests. My job was to represent the American interests.”

Was Hopkins representing Russian interests at a time of American need?

Who was Harry Hopkins?


13 posted on 08/08/2013 7:00:54 AM PDT by cutty
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

“Churchill famously urged that the advance on Germany continue from already-won bases in Italy”

I wish people would publish quotes to back up such complete nonsense. But of course if there were any quotes to back this up, it wouldn’t be the complete nonsense that it is.

Churchill in fact advocated a ‘dilly dally’ strategy. As long as Germans and Russians were killing each other, he was perfectly happy to sit on the sidelines.

He figured we’d have to fight the Russians after the war anyway. The more that were dead, the better.


17 posted on 08/08/2013 7:04:35 AM PDT by I cannot think of a name
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

Churchill actually advocated a strong allied thrust through south central Europe. He actually ordered a British offensive that cost the lives of many brave soldiers. In his defense he was never fooled by Hitler and understood Stalin. The post war history of Eastern Europe would have been far different if a significant Anglo-American force had been present with the Russians. However those who pointed out that the logistics of fighting in South Central Europe would have been a nightmare and therefore causalities would have been similar to what the Russians suffered were probably correct. IMHO Churchill was always haunted by his role in the disaster at Gallipoli in 1915 and in an odd way was trying to vindicate his strategy that victory over Germany was achieved through the “soft underbelly of Europe”.


21 posted on 08/08/2013 7:09:38 AM PDT by allendale
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

I always thought that the presence of the Alps led to this preference in strategy.


22 posted on 08/08/2013 7:11:53 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty
The situation in WWII was far more complex than the article describes. The invasion of Sicily had been poorly planned and executed and was only saved by Patton. The German army on Sicily was allowed to escape. After The Allies conquered Sicily the Italian government overthrew Mussolini and tried to surrender to the U.S. Eisenhower and Marshall did not quickly accept the surrender, the Germans were allowed take over Italy and a long and costly Italian campaign was needed. Patton was relieved of command and the operations at Salerno and Anzio and Italy in general were poorly planned and resulted in heavy casualties.

Marshall and Hopkins wanted to invade France in 1943 which would have been an absolute disaster. Only Churchill's insistence prevented this major error. The invasion of Normandy was planned by the British with oversight from Eisenhower. The invasion was the greatest amphibious success in the history of warfare. But soon after the invasion the allies were being defeated on the ground despite superior men and material and complete air superiority.

Pattton was finally returned to active command. He quickly outflanked and soundly defeated the Germans. The German Army was low on supplies and close to starvation in late 1944. Its ranks filled with boys and middle aged men. The Allies should have won the war in late 1944 but the Allies failed to secure the Port of Antwerp until December 1944. They wasted resources and time on the failed Operation Market Garden.

The Allies had an enormous advantage by 1944. The Germans were fighting on two fronts and their resources were being rapidly depleted. Allies had total air superiority by late 1944. German cities were being bombed day and night.

The invasion of France and the maintenence of the front in Italy helped to end the war. Leaving more troops in Italy would have made little difference.

27 posted on 08/08/2013 7:23:56 AM PDT by detective
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

Because that whole Dardanelles thing worked out so great in WWI???

Sometimes, just because someone we don’t like wants it ... doesn’t mean it’s not the right thing to do.


29 posted on 08/08/2013 7:29:17 AM PDT by Kommodor (Terrorist, Journalist or Democrat? I can't tell the difference.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: Homer_J_Simpson

Of interest to our group.


35 posted on 08/08/2013 7:37:09 AM PDT by abb
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty
Italy was always Churchill's brainchild. In volume two of his Liberation Trilogy, Rick Atkinson details the conference held in Washington with the combined staffs of the U.S. and Great Britain. The U.S. was always opposed to an Italian campaign on the grounds that it took resources away from the invasion of France. The U.S. agreed to Sicily and Italy reluctantly.

And really West is backwards in calling D-Day the Stalin strategy. The strongest argument for the invasion of Sicly and Italy was the fact that at the time Stalin alone was facing German ground forces. The Allies had cleared North Africa and the invasion of France was, according to the plans at the time, a good 18 months away. Neither Churchill or Roosevelt felt that we could let Stalin shoulder the entire burden for that long. So it was Italy that was the sop to Stalin and not France.

36 posted on 08/08/2013 7:37:44 AM PDT by 0.E.O
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

bookmark


43 posted on 08/08/2013 8:13:46 AM PDT by DFG ("Dumb, Dependent, and Democrat is no way to go through life" - Louie Gohmert (R-TX))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty
Stalin's desire for a so-called "Second Front" was no secret to anyone at the time, and his multi-fronted publicity-campaign to make it happen, using every sympathizer and fellow-traveler he had available, was easily recognized for what it was. This is just matter-of-fact history. Stalin's obsession was so overbearingly-obvious at the time that many mocked it, but not too much, for most of the spilled Allied blood at the time was Russian, and that is not just propaganda. Too many people confuse the Western Allies’ cooperativeness with Russia for utter naivety, but it wasn't: The Russian people were, in fact, bearing the most brutal brunt of Nazi aggression, and everyone felt somewhat guilty about that, even if their great leader, Stalin, was taking totally-shameless political advantage of it all. Thanks to a little Russian propaganda and OCEANS of Russian blood, many felt that Russians had pretty-much earned the right to quit fighting once the Germans were pushed back into Polish territory. What people conveniently forget is that the Germans, under Hitler no less, tried to obtain an armistice with Russia in order to close up the Eastern Front, and held a "secret" conference between Molotov and Ribbentropp, to make it happen. The main reason the Germans did not get their armistice was because Stalin was greatly reassured by his Western allies that his wish for a "Second Front" absolutely would be granted; otherwise; he almost assuredly would have signed another “Pact of Steel”, just like in 1939, or dropped another "Brest-Litovsk Treaty" on their sorry capitalist butts, just like Lenin did in 1918.
45 posted on 08/08/2013 8:56:17 AM PDT by Trentamj
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

Albert Speer (who probably as much as anyone had an inside straight to the Nazi situation) in May 1944 concluded that a real danger was the possibility of the Allies destroying all the Rhine bridges in one day.

In his memoirs he writes: “In May 29, 1944, some ten days later, I wrote to Jodl in some agitation:

‘I am tormented by the thought that someday all the bridges over the Rhine will be destroyed. According to my observations of the density of the bombings recently, it should be possible for the enemy to do this. What would the situation be if the enemy, after cutting off all traffic to the armies in the occupied western territories, did not carry out his landings at the Atlantic Wall, but on the North Sea coast in Germany? such a landing would probably be practicable, since he already possess absolute air superiority which is surely the prime prerequisite for a successful landing on the north German coastal area. At any rate his casualties would certainly be less by such an approach than by a direct assault on the Atlantic Wall.’

In Germany itself we had scarcely any troop units at our disposal. If the airports at Hamburg and Bremen could be taken by parachute units and the ports of these cities be seized by small forces, invasion armies debarking from ships would, I feared, meet no resistance and would be occupying Berlin and all of Germany within a few days. Meanwhile, the three armies in the West would be cut off by the Rhine and the army groups in the East tied down in heavy defensive battles, in any case they were too far away to be able to intervene in time.”

MacArthur might have thought of doing something like that, but he was elsewhere.


48 posted on 08/08/2013 9:21:08 AM PDT by Western Phil
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty
As an aside, THIS is fascinating: "Ghost Army's" Fake Tanks, Ghost Army Helped Defeat Germans During WW ll
54 posted on 08/08/2013 10:29:18 AM PDT by USS Johnston (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

This is ludicrous. Ms. West’s rewriting of events in World War Two wrecks her credibility on other issues.


56 posted on 08/08/2013 11:23:44 AM PDT by Thud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: cutty

The problem was that Northern Italy was more easily defensible by the Germans.

We would have needed to go over the Alps to reach Germany that way.

In contrast, invading from France was flat to the Rhine.


69 posted on 10/25/2013 6:42:49 PM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson