Posted on 10/25/2010 12:53:38 PM PDT by Feline_AIDS
Periodically I come to this same conundrum when I encounter people who attach the terms "Nazis" and "rightwing."
I read Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism, and from what I can gather, he is saying that the Nazis were socialists and nationalists at the same time, meaning they were nationalistic enough to be considered rightwing, even though they were on the left economically (and socially). A third way, not meeting in the middle--more like bending the spectrum backward so the two ends meet.
Could someone explain this curious part of the political spectrum? Because Goldberg explains that nationalism was mostly a leftie thing--"Moreover, historically, nationalism was a liberal-left phenomenon. The french Revolution was a nationalist revolution, but it was also seen as a left-liberal one for breaking with the Catholic Church and empowering the people" (71).
I just basically want to be able to explain this to myself and others more succinctly. This is something I think we probably should all be adept at, because the longer the left can say there were commies on the left and Nazis on the right, the longer they stall us from talking about real issues.
I get very frustrated when I can't articulate this. I'd appreciate any explanations of the political spectrum, though I'd hope nothing so simple and erroneous (?) as communism on the left, anarchism on the right.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nationalism
The Soviets were Nationalist too.
So were the Chicoms.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nationalism
1.national spirit or aspirations.
2.devotion and loyalty to one’s own nation; patriotism.
3.excessive patriotism; chauvinism.
4.the desire for national advancement or independence.
5.the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one’s own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.
Origin:
1830–40
nationalism
1844, “devotion to one’s country,” from national + -ism. Earlier it was used in a theological sense of “the doctrine of divine election of nations” (1836). Later it was used in a sense of “doctrine advocating nationalization of a country’s industry” (1892).
nationalism definition
The strong belief that the interests of a particular nation-state are of primary importance. Also, the belief that a people who share a common language, history, and culture should constitute an independent nation, free of foreign domination.
Socialists aren’t ‘right wing’
I think it is better to think of the political spectrum as being laid out on a circle. At one side of the circle, you have maximum freedom consistent with a functioning country (some police, for example). On the other, you have complete government control over everything you can do, own, or even think. So, in my view, the Nazis and the Communists are close together.
Now, the question of which direction you transit from freedom to tyranny is interesting. Some of the paths involve European Socialism, and we call those left; while some involve control of industry rather than direct control of individuals—we call those right.
Mussolini started out as a right wing movement. Hitler is harder to figure... he had both left and right features—it was called “national socialism” after all, but his final destination was virtually the same as Lenin’s and Stalin’s from the view of the populace. Secret police, concentration camps, full control.
Rightwing European. There’s a really big difference between left and right in Europe as opposed to the USA. The media further confuses the issue.
Pym Fortyun was considered “far right” despite being a flaming homosexual.
Sure-—just typical smoke screen BS. NAZIs were left wing—socialist. On the same left side as Marxism.
The “right-left” spectrum is not an apt way of delineating political views. A better way of describing the spectrum is a “liberty-totalitarian” spectrum. Nazism, communism, dictatorships, etc., lie on the totalitarian side of the graph. Representative republics are on the liberty side. The more the citizens in the representative republic give up their freedoms in return for intangibles like stability, security, peace, etc., the more they drift toward the totalitarian end.
Republican’s used to be blue, democrat’s red. Now it seems the complete opposite. It is why labels are always bad.
National SOCIALIST German Worker’s Party. The left has always tried to pretend the Nazis were right-wing, but then, the left always lies.
What was Franco?
Keep this on tap for the lefties when they claim Nazis are right-wing:
Nazi is short for:
National Socialist German Workers Party
Covers socialism which is lefty. End of story.
:D
Hoss
Was Franco a Commie too?
In the beginning Joseph Goebbels and Ernst Rohm were the real true believers in the socialism part, Hitler mostly gave it lip service until Rohm was no longer useful to him and liquidated, and Goebbels was so attached to him that he would swallow anything the Fuhrer said.
They’re right-wing, but to say that they’re close to modern day Conservatism is a lie. They’re much closer to the older elitist form of right-wing politics you see in Monarchism that the Liberal-Conservatism that makes up most major Center-Right parties. And yes while they called themselves socialists, it’s wise to bring up the fact that Metternich, the symbol of 19th Century Reaction called himself a “Conservative Socialist”.
Extreme Left = Totalitarian Government control
Extreme Right = Anarchy (no governing control )
“The Soviets were Nationalist too. So were the Chicoms.”
QFT. That would mean they were fascist. But the American left, which has defined the terms of the debate, can’t go there.
Nor can you distinguish the fascists from the soviet and chinese socialist because somehow, the soviets and chinese were “internationalist.” Because the fascists were also internationalist in the sense that they started WWII to spread their power over the Eurasian land mass. As opposed to the Soviets occupying all of Eastern Europe and the Chinese, Tibet and Manchuria.
Some of the Soviet and Chinese rhetoric talked about the “internationalist” masses. But in practice, they were all thuggish socialist dictatorships.
It doesn’t help that the meaning of the word “liberal” has changed so much. Jefferson, Lafayette, Madison were considered liberals for their part in the “great awakening” that accompanied the move from monarchys to Republics, from serfdom to freedom. Now, we conservatives are trying to conserve that which was considered liberal then...and todays liberals are just the power hungry statists that they have always been.
In addition, Hitler ran for President against Hindenberg, the conservative, and lost.
That's the easy answer.
It gets much more complicated, however, when you descend from 40,000 feet to ground level. German politics at the time were extremely complex. The Nazis pieced their coalition government out of a strange mix of parties. Plus, major industrial leaders were pushing for them because they thought the Nazis would bring stability and be good for business.
After the quick Nazi coup that effectively ended free elections Hitler became popular among all manner of groups as he stuck it to the western powers and communists.
So, there is enough out there for the western left to persuade itself that the Nazis were conservatives, but that's not really where they came from.
Indeed, Hitler was never fully accepted by the old monarchists and authoritarians. There are famous examples of the old Prussian officer corps who thought he was a social inferior and incompetant.
Political beliefs don't fit neatly along a one-dimensional spectrum. A two dimensional matrix does a better job — where various characteristics can define each dimension.
For instance, “leftists” (or right wing) political parties could be arranged along a second axis “freedom vs. authoritarianism”. NAZIs would considered left-wing, authoritarian.
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