Posted on 12/09/2009 11:40:19 AM PST by BGHater
You know, the 25th being the date of conception, and thus early fall being the date of birth makes a lot of sense:
Practical:
Shephards would be in the fields in the fall.
Historical:
This was a time of harvest and a common time for a census, as people are heading back in to batten down for the coming winter.
Mathematical:
A fall birth would give balance to a spring death (Passover), and if anything I’ve figured out about God is He is a mathematics geek who like symatry.
Theological:
The other “big” Jewish holidays other than Passover are Rosh Hashanah/Yom Kippur (indeed Yom Kippur being the holiest) and Rosh Hashanah being the the “new year” (talk about a time for a fresh start, huh?)
Practical:
The aforementioned Rosh Hashanah/Yom Kippur also necessitates some gathering together, going home, etc, which makes the general time a logical time to have a census as people head home for that sort of thing.
Yeah, I think so.
Christian’s celebration of the Resurrection became all about baby chicks and bunnies, symbols of the spring season of fecundity (oestrus)as celebrated by pagans. Most confusing, and quite needlessly so.
Roman Catholic missionary priests have been quite adept at laying a veneer of Christian symbolism on pre-existing festivals celebrated by pagan peoples they ostensbily were trying to convert to Christianity. Celebratory parades observed by indigenous Latin American Indians and succeeding mixed breed peoples (Spanish influence) are examples.
I think the bottom line is straightforward. First of all, that date was chosen not because it is a pagan holiday, rather it was chosen for that day for the same *reason* the pagan holidays were on that day as well. Even the author calls them “solar festivals”. So what is a solar festival?
Simply put, the winter solstice happens on December 21st, on a stable, adjusted modern calendar. But the first day most people can tell that the sun is “coming back” is on December 25th.
If you don’t know what day Jesus was born, then what better day to pick than the day when the “world is restored”, and you can tell that “light is returning to the world”? Who cares if the pagans also liked the day?
However, the stable, modern calendar is also a recent innovation, and an awful lot of thought went into figuring out how to justify all the other various historical calendars. It never did work out very well, so we are left with some good guesses.
Almost to the modern era, there was a lot of chaos in calendars. On the Julian calendar, George Washington was born 11 days earlier than on the Gregorian calendar, and it doesn’t help that his birthday is not celebrated on the actual day. Even during the Napoleonic wars, the Russians were still on the Julian calendar, so they showed up two weeks late to a major battle in 1805. That could have resulted in Napoleon being the Emperor of Europe.
If we can’t even get things orderly 200 or so years ago, what hope have we of figuring out things that happened 2000 years ago?
This is why the bottom line to this is that the days picked for holidays will be arbitrary. So the important thing is to emphasize the *purpose* of the holiday. This is what matters.
“the important thing is to emphasize the *purpose* of the holiday. This is what matters.”
I agree about 90% of that statement.
The other 10% is that I have become aware of just how much pagan influence has leaked into Christian practice, and how much effort was put into de-Jewishing Christianity (in revolt against Judaizing Christians who were still hung up on being Jewish, I know, but they went overboard).
Nothing wrong with getting the date right.
Tabernacles, Rosh Hashanah, etc are much more likely dates.
I have a little problem with the whole 9 month thing. Gestation isn’t 9 months, but 40 weeks. March 25 to December 25 is less than 40 weeks. If one were to do a best-guess full-gestation birth date estimate based on a March 25 conception, the date of birth should be December 30.
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There's some cool stuff about it at: http://www.bethlehemstar.net/
Ummm..., the birth or conception... ?
Here is something that Joseph Farah wrote about it several years back. I know that is is controversial but I think it might be celebrated Dec 25 BECAUSE THAT IS THE DATE OF HIS BIRTH...
Jesus, the Lamb of God
Posted: December 24, 2001
By Joseph Farah
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25819
Tomorrow, millions of Christians around the world celebrate the birth of the One they believe to be the Savior of the world, the Prince of Peace, the Son of God – Jesus of Nazareth.
Jesus is called many things in the Bible. One of His names is the Lamb of God. And while no one is quite sure exactly when Jesus was born, I believe that name may actually lend credence to the birth date of Dec. 25.
I know what you skeptics are going to say. Dec. 25 was chosen by church leaders because it coincided with pagan festivities. It was a way of hijacking those customs and traditions – a way of redeeming them.
But hear me out. I’m going to tell you why I think Dec. 25 could well be the actual birthday of the Messiah. First, let’s review the most descriptive and familiar of the Christmas stories from the Bible.
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.
And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest’s office before God in the order of his course, According to the custom of the priest’s office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.
And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense. And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Luke 1:5-13 KJV
The story continues, with Zacharias remaining in the temple and fulfilling his duties as priest. Only after “the days of his ministration were accomplished” did Zacharias return home, where his wife, Elisabeth, conceived, “and hid herself five months.”
And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible.
And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Luke 1:26-44
Notice the details pointing to the approximate time when Jesus was conceived and born.
“What are you talking about, Farah?” you’re probably asking yourself.
We’ve learned that Zacharias was a priest of the course of Abia and that he fulfilled his duties before going home and impregnating his wife. In I Chronicles 24:1-10, we learn that the priestly duties were established about 1,000 years earlier. They included 24 courses and were numbered by drawing lots – 12 courses for sanctuary service and 12 for the government of the house of God.
Priests would serve during a month starting with the Hebrew months of Nisan, which can begin anytime between early March and early April. The sons of Abija, the Old Testament spelling for Abia, were in the eighth course, which would mean Zacharias would likely have ministered during the eighth month of the Hebrew calendar, starting as early as the fifth day of our month of October. That would place the likely time of John the Baptist’s conception toward the end of October.
Elisabeth then hid herself for five months. Sometime, perhaps, around March 15-April 15, the angel appeared to Mary. For the sake of argument, let’s say this happened on or about April 1. A normal gestation period of 270 days would have resulted in the birth of Jesus on or about Dec. 25.
That is a very plausible scenario. Still not convinced? How about this?
Let’s go back to Luke, Chapter 2, verse 8: “And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.”
Shepherds spent the night in the fields with their sheep when the lambs are born. The mating cycle begins after June 21. The normal gestation period is five months, so the ewes start giving birth in mid-December.
And that’s where “the Lamb of God” comes into the picture. Jesus was likened to a lamb who was brought into this world to be slaughtered for our sins. Wouldn’t it make sense that He was born around the same time that the innocent little lambs were being born in the fields nearby?
The more I read the Bible, the more I am stunned by such little “coincidences.” The Bible is full of them. It makes perfect sense to me. I hope you agree.
Yet, it doesn’t really matter exactly when Jesus was born. The important thing today, as we Christians prepare to celebrate that birth, is that He was born – that He did come, that He later laid down His life for us and that He will come again.
Merry Christmas to all of you, dear readers. May the joy of His coming be with you today, tomorrow and for all eternity.
It never ceases how many “Christians” are so fast to join forces with atheists, pagans, and all manners of Christ-haters in hating Christmas.
Yes, it is true that the ancient Christians supposed at a date when to celebrate Christmas. But they did so for pious, sensible reasons having nothing to do with pagan celebrations.
The claim that Christmas was chosen to fall on In Sol Invictus is simply a Satanic slander. The opposite is true: Sol Invictus was celebrated in August, until moved to that year four centuries after Christ, by gnostics who wished to co-opt the Christian holiday into their pantheon. There has been some association with Sol Invictus and Christ, but this is likely a contrast, with Christ labeled the “Sun of Justice,” taking after Malachi 4:2, written centuries before Rome even adopted the worship of Sol. [”But for you who revere my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall.”]
December 25th was chosen for Christmas for two reasons:
1. While the apostles may not have known Jesus’ birthday, they certainly knew of the day he died: The day before the Pharisees’ Passover, which was the day of the Essenes’ passover. This was calculated in antiquity to have fallen on March 25th. Great prophets were said to be conceived into the afterlife (died) on the day the day they were conceived into the world. Hence, March 25th is celebrated as the Feast of the Annunciation, when Christ was conceived. December 25th is nine months later.
2. The Feast of the Dedication of the Temple celebrates the return of the Spirit of God to dwell among Men. It’s the 8th day of Passover, and falls on the 25th of the month closest to December (Kislev). Christ declared that He was the Temple of the Living God. He traveled to Jerusalem at the time of the Feast of the Dedication in each of his three-year ministry. (In fact, that’s about the only basis for suggesting his ministry lasted three years.)
It makes sense that the Feast of the Dedication could celebrate his conception. Even if so, it’s a fine day to celebrate.
Many other arguments are quite spurious; For instance, it’s said shepherds wouldn’t be having their sheep out to pasture. But that’s based on weather we have now. During the Roman Warm Period, the existence of weather warm enough to pasture sheep is hardly proof that an event couldn’t fall on the 25th of Kislev, especially since 25 Kislev could be as early as mid-November.
A slight interest.
Not a high priority.
Thx.
I am sure that someone could eventually pin it down. But, the point of the matter is that no one can definitively tell you when this baby, born to an out of wedlock mother and his carpenter father, was exactly.
Think about it in our context. A baby is born behind a garage in a shed, because its homeless parents cannot afford rent.
Two thousand years from now will they be able to find a birth certificate? They would know that it was born during the reign of Obama. That will narrow it down to four years.....
Hell we can't even find Obama's.
:D
I am sure that someone could eventually pin it down. But, the point of the matter is that no one can definitively tell you when this baby, born to an out of wedlock mother and his carpenter father, was exactly.
Well, unless there is some undiscovered and new information that we do not have right now, I don't know how anyone could pin it down any more than it is right now. We do have a lot of clues as to the time of the year, but I don't think that's ever going to get us close to a particular day of the year.
And there are reasons why God left some details out, while including other details, in the Bible.
Think about it in our context. A baby is born behind a garage in a shed, because its homeless parents cannot afford rent.
I don't think that those parents were ever really "homeless" though. I mean, being unable to find location accommodations on a trip that one is making is hardly being homeless... :-)
They had a home before they left on the trip and they had a home after they made the trip. The crowded "inn conditions" at that particular time, hardly makes one homeless. They were unable to come up with the kind of accommodations that they had sought at the time, as that was all they could find, but to say that they were homeless is to depict them in a light that they really weren't in, in their situation.
But, aside from the issue of "homeless," it wouldn't bear on the date of the Messiah of Israel's birth.
It seems fairly clear to me that the general time period of the 25th of Kislev being the time of conception, would fit very well what we know of the situation.
In order for for Joseph and Mary to travel from Nazareth to Bethlehem required a SUV. They at least had a donkey, camel etc. for the travel.
Those were not cheap. Joseph had more money than people let on.
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Thanks BGHater, and Merry Christmas! |
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Don’t get me started on this. I could offer more ‘splainin’ than Lucy bargained for!!
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