[BenLurkin]

Ping

[RetiredArmy]

I'm Lauralee, I'm 18, I am a Deist, I don't own a gun, I live in Left Wing Liberal New York. And FreeRepublic is like my group therapy session because I am a Republican. I may be young, but I'm not stupid (Although, they usually go hand in hand). I'd much rather speak to a 30 year old than someone my age.

Above is what you have on your free republic page. Now, I got one question for you, and that is: What Planet have you been living on when you ask this question? Certainly you jest here. Surely.

[Not A Snowbird]

Google it. You'll get more information than you could ever want about Janet Reno and Waco.

[theDentist]

In a nutshell: A bunch of goofballs thought a paranoid dolt named David "Koresh" was a reincarnation of Christ, hunkered down and bunkered up, and refused to let authorities arrest Koresh for some weapons charges. Pot shots fired back and forth. Bill and Reno gave the go-ahead to gas them after 50(?) or so days in hopes they'd give up.
Koresh thought it was time for the armageddon blues so he and his idiot followers set fire to their compound, burning itself and themselves up. Some died of inhalation, some smothered, some of gunshot wounds.

Didn't you see it on the news?

[skeeter]

ping

[7.62 x 51mm]

Go to www.google.com, type in Waco, make a tray of sandwiches, cauldron of soup, chill some beers or whatever, and spend a few months reading.

Ever heard of www.google.com?

[Duke Nukum]

I was just thinking about Waco yesterday when reading the DUmmie FUnnies, wondering if those who were upset that a few "innocent" protesters who were assaulting the President's motorcade got pepper sprayed felt about he 80 children Janet Reno saved by burning them up.

I remember Waco very well. I don't know how much Clinton was really involved in it but Reno was just following the pattern she established in the satanic child abuse case she prosecuted in Dade County, only this time she had more fire power.

I remember that weasel, Clinton, at the time disavowing any knowledge of it.

Oh! I just remembered, the whole thing started because the ATF was worried they were going to be disbanded, even though they could have served David Koresh with the arrest warrant at any time he was on his habitual walk through town, they put together what they called Project Showtime. So, the ATF wanting pub and funding is what precipitated the murders.

[Gingersnap]

theDentist actually gave you a pretty fair summation but there were a lot of issues involved. Although Davy boy was a complete nut job and probably would have eventually killed his followers himself, there were some issues involving the bounds of Federal authority which are interesting.

It's too complicated to get into here but there are a number of books and articles on the event.

[MotleyGirl70]

You can do a search on FR.

I recommend using a search engine and type in: Waco and see what you are looking for.

[girlscout]

Good keywords for a Google search on this tragedy would be Branch Davidians. That was the name this group of folks lived and operated under.

[COBOL2Java]

From rotten.com:

---

David Koresh

Vernon Wayne Howell was pretty much your average Houston teenager. "Vernie," as the other kids called him, was a dyslexic high school dropout born to an unwed teenaged mother. Pretty typical. In 1979, he went to Hollywood to make it as a rock guitarist, but after only two years gave up and moved to Waco.

In Waco he became a member of the Branch Davidian Seventh-Day Adventist religious cult, led by 67-year-old Lois Roden. Vernon enjoyed a sexual relationship with the charismatic senior citizen. When Lois died in 1986, a bitter power struggle ensued between Vernon and Roden's son George.

When a majority of congregants sided with George Roden, Vernon's followers were forced off the Mount Carmel complex at gunpoint. They relocated to Palestine, Texas. It seemed to have been basically a peaceful schism, as far as your crazy religious cults go.

But truth be told, nobody was all that surprised when Vernon returned to Mount Carmel in 1987 dressed in camoflauge with seven trusted acolytes. They had two shotguns, seven rifles, and 400 rounds of ammo. George Roden wound up with gunshot wounds in his hands and chest. Vernon and his squad were brought up on attempted murder charges, but none were ever convicted.

After the trials, Vernon was the undisputed leader of the Branch Davidians, but the whole experience had made him sort of paranoid. It attracted the attention of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms when they got into the business of selling guns. Beginning in 1991, the group began spending what would become a total of $199,715 on inventory. The UPS guy was dropping by Mount Carmel on a near-daily basis to deliver their weapons and gun parts.

In 1990 Vernon legally changed his name to David Koresh. The paperwork stated that it was "for publicity and business purposes." Koresh believed he was the reincarnation of both King David and King Cyrus of Persia; he had been appointed by God to rebuild the Temple and destroy Babylon. In other words, Koresh claimed to be the Messiah.

By that time, Koresh had already declared that he was owed at minimum 140 wives, and that he was entitled to claim any of the females in the compound as his. Evidently he had fathered at least a dozen babies by the harem. Some were girls as young as 12 or 13 when they got knocked up by the Messiah.

Understandably, federal officials were starting to get Jonestown flashbacks. Then the ATF got wind that the Davidians had failed to pay taxes on a bunch of machine guns that they possessed. So they mounted a now-infamous raid on the Mount Carmel complex in February 1993.

It was completely fu_ked up before the ATF even arrived on-scene. An ambulance company hired by the ATF leaked details of the operation to a local TV station. To verify the story, KWTX-TV dispatched photographer Jim Peeler who discussed the rumor with the Branch Davidians' mailman. The mailman turned out to be David Koresh's brother-in-law David Jones, who immediately passed the information along to the church.

When the ATF finally did show up, all 131 Branch Davidians (as well as a couple of local television news crews) were waiting for them. Not fully appreciating the seriousness of their situation, the ATF chose to plow forward anyway. A team sent to gain ingress through a second-story window were met with immediate gunfire.

All told, the abortive raid cost ten lives, four of them ATF agents. It was followed by a 51-day siege, coordinated under the auspices of the FBI. The siege ended only when Attorney General Janet Reno ordered that the Branch Davidians be hauled out by force, using FBI extraction teams backed by snipers and tanks.

Things went horribly wrong when something caught the place on fire. Based on the resulting arson investigation and audio surveillance conducted inside the buildings, it seems likely that cult members themselves lit three fires simultaneously, possibly as an ill-conceived defensive tactic. Surveillance tapes reportedly indicate Koresh discussing "spreading fuel" -- tapes which the FBI denied any knowledge of.

Not helping matters any were the FBI's pyrotechnic CS tear-gas grenades, which the agency swore had not been used, until they were forced to admit it six years after the fact. Further loss of life occurred because the FBI deliberately rendered inoperable all exits to the burning building, logic apparently dictating that in order to save the children, they had to destroy them.

Timothy McVeigh was one of the civilian spectators hanging around outside the perimeter. Two years later, he chose the Waco anniversary to blow up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

[DBrow]

Here's an interesting tidbit to research- the only four Federal agents to die (they got shot under suspicious circumstances in the initial raid) were former Bill Clinton bodyguards from Arkansas.

Also, Janet Reno, who took "full responsibility" later on, spluttered to an TV interviewer:

"...but...but.. I was not made aware..bu..Web Hubble was there, he was in charge..I...I..." Paraphrased, natch, but a good TV quote to look up if you can find it.

She aploogized for the whole affair of sending in military force,stating that someone had falsely convinced her there was a meth lab on site. There was no lab and there was no evidence of one before or after. DEA rules allow using the military in such circumstances- otherwise posse comatatus law rules out civilian use of military assets, another good thing to look up. So who committed the felony of lying to a government official in a fiasco that resulted in 90 or so deaths? Why was that person never named, indcicted, or punished?

Lon Horiuchi, of Randy Weaver fame, was next door in a house, where they found a bunch of .308 casings, but the former FBI sniper claims he never fired a shot.

A report from the Texas Rangers discusses what they found in the smouldering wreckage. They mention "spent gas cannisters with residues of aluminum and iron oxide". See if you can find that report- aluminum and iron oxide is thermite, not tear gas. Nor is it a flashbang, which are aluminum and potassium perchlorate.

Anyway, just thought I'd mention some interesting aspects of Waco. Have fun, use the FR archives, Google, ad try to see some of the movies.

[Saundra Duffy]

All I know is that I'll never forgive Clinton and Reno for torturing and murdering those 24 innocent CHILDREN!!!!!!!!

[conservativebabe]

Buy David Limbaugh's book Absolute Power, There is an entire chapter dedicated to that fiasco.

[conservativebabe]

I also forgot to mention that the book is awesome. Waco is just one of the horrible mistakes made by Clinton and Reno addressed in the book. It's a great read if you want to buy it, otherwise, just go to the library and checki it out.

I'll never forget the day Waco happened. I was stunned and sickened at the sensless loss of life.

[herewego]

Welcome!!

[ChefKeith]

If and How were Janet Reno and President Bill Clinton involved and what did they do?

There is no "if" and they MURDERED INNOCENT PEOPLE AND GOT AWAY WITH IT!!!

Because of the mainscummedia most people believe the line of BS theDentist fed You.

[SouthTexas]

Waging a war of Armageddon

The FBI has received more criticism for its handling of the 'Waco standoff' than any other law enforcement scandal of the 1990's. Few will soon forget what they saw that afternoon, as the tedium of daily coverage exploded in wind whipped flame across the television screens of the world.

It should be remembered, though, that the FBI alone did not create the tar baby which burned it that day. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF) formed the original raiding party, and the FBI at the time of the initial assault was busy with the two-day old investigation of the World Trade Center bombing in New York City. Even so, the standoff at Mount Carmel quickly became an FBI show. The consequences were even more deadly than the original failed raid (which occured on Feb 28, 1993).

The FBI received its jurisdiction because four of the BATF raiding party were killed in the assault, as were six Branch Davidian men. At least twenty eight (of 76) ATF raiders and several Branch Davidians were also wounded in the firefight, which lasted for more than one hour. A ceasefire was finally arranged by telephone, and the wounded and dead were collected by both sides without further incident, except for one Branch Davidian casualty who lay outside the building for several more days until he was allowed a shallow burial. His grave was later run over repeatedly by FBI driven, (US Army issue) armored vehicles.

When the FBI arrived, it operated on the assumption that the children in Mount Carmel Center were essentially hostages. The FBI Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) under Richard M Rogers was deployed as a perimeter to keep the people inside the building. The Dallas FBI Special Operations Group (SOG) was also put into the defensive perimeter as snipers and observers. The FBI Special Agent in Charge of the San Antonio Field Office, Jeffrey Jamar, was put in charge of the seige, coded WACMUR by the FBI (Waco Murders). At FBI HQ in Washington, D.C., the Strategic Information Operations Center was following the progress of the seige under the command of Larry Potts, whose actions in the Weaver case eventually earned him wide distrust outside the bureau.

More

[WestCoastGal]

One would think you picked this subject to start a flame war!!

Look it up on the Internet or even search Free Republic before opening up this mess again with a new thread!!

[DBrow]

Wow, Lauralee, your post has stirred up some people! Please stick around.

OK, more Waco stuff. Before BATF went ahead, they had to have a search warrant to look for the illegal weapons.

Koresh and his crew had been running a gun show sales operation (called either *K Branch Davidians or Mag_Bag), I don't know if you have many where you are but they are a way of life for some people. So they had lots of surplus guns, cut rate ammo, doodads like inert training grenades, and maintenance kits for AR-15 type rifles, pretty standard stuff for a gun show. You rent a table and display your Moisin-Nagant rifles, cleaning kits, and so forth. The maintenance kit for ARs was called an "E-2 Replacement Kit" and it had a set of springs, pins, cotter pins, and the barrel and parts that hold the barrel. Not illegal, not dangerous, and you don't need a license to own one or sell one.

So the BATF, the feds in charge of firearms regulations, wrote up a search warrant that spoke ominously of grenades, illegal machine guns. It was claimed that they had everything needed to make an M16 machinegun except the full auto reciever, which anyone who owns a legal AR15 has- the full auto lower reciever is the federally regulated one you need a licence for, so merely owning an upper is not a crime. The maintenance kits they had for sale at gun shows were called Machinegun E2 Kits by the ATF in the warrant.

(Also on June 8,1992, I interviewed Cynthia Alco, Owner/Manager, Nesard Gun Parts Company, Barrington, Illinois, and learned from her that in May of 1992, her company shipped to the "Mag-Bag", two (2) M-16 machinegun car kits and two (2) M-16 machinegun E2 kits. These kits contain all the parts of an M-16 machinegun, except for the lower receiver unit which is the "firearm" by lawful definition.)

and it was implied that they could be used to convert an AR15 into a machinegun. The warrant also said thet they had a full auto lower reciever for an AK47, which has a one piece reciever.

The judge who signed this warrant kkew less about firearms than the BATF Government Expert in Firearms did. So based on this fraudulent inaccurate document, the BATF loaded a cattle truck with black-clad commandos armed with H&K MP5 submachineguns, M16 rifles, and so on. They drove up to the door, jumped out, and tried to storm the house, which we all call now "the compound".

They also had:

one hundred four (104), AR-15/M-16, upper receiver groups with barels. Eight thousand, one hundred (8,100) rounds of 9mm and .223 caliber ammunition for AR-15/M-16. Twenty (20), one hundred round capacity drum magazines for AK-47 rifles. Two hundred sixty (260), M-16/AR-15 magazines. Thirty (30) M-14 magazines. Two (2) M-16 E2 kits. Two (2) M-16 car kits. One M-76 grenade launcher. Two hundred (200) M-31, practice rifle grenades. Four (4) M-16 parts set Kits "A". Two (2) flare launchers Two cases, (approximately 50) inert practice hand grenades. 40-50 pounds of black gun powder. Thirty (30) pounds of Potassium Nitrate. Five (5) pounds of Magnesium metal powder. One pound of Igniter cord. ( A class C explosive) Ninety-one (91) AR/15 lower receiver units. Twenty-six (26) various calibers and brands of hand guns and long guns. 90 pounds of aluminum metal powder. 30-40 cardboard tubes.

none of which is illegal nor unusual to find at a gun show (if you have never been to one you should go, there's lots of stuff other than guns and ammo to get, and some have live entertainment and good food if you like chili). In many states making your own pyrotechnics is not illegal, so you can buy cardboard tubes, potassium nitrate, and aluminum dust.

http://i2i.org/SuptDocs/Waco/warrant.htm


http://www.jaedworks.com/shoebox/waco.html